So, then, as a Christian grows, first in knowledge, then in freedom, he should become more and more physically perfect? It's the exact opposite that I witness in my life, bearing in mind I'm pretty advanced into middle-age. My loved ones seem to develop new infirmities every day, and I've already lost some dear Christian friends to disease. It seems pretty cruel to say that they had not been remade in the image of Christ since they were not healed, and yet Fidel Castro lingers on and on... I've got to agree, however, that the consummation will be the resurrection and in the new heaven and new earth, where there will be no sickness nor sorrow.Jim wrote: It is one of the very purposes of the incarnation of Christ, to heal us from the wound of Adam's sin. Christ Jesus incarnation, life, death and ressurection set us free from the bondages of Satan, Sin and most of all death. He laid the grown work, now it is up to us to grab hold of the grace given and take the medicine so to speak to heal. The three stages catharsis (purification), theoria (illumination, the knowledge of God) and theosis (the process of being freed from sin, Being united with God, divination) and is consummated in the ressurection.
What is the deal with healing?
Re: What is the deal with healing?
Re: What is the deal with healing?
You miss understood what I was saying. Physical ailments and death are part of this life, which eventually will be done away, but for now death and illness is still part of our world. I am not saying people will get physically better but it is used by our Lord to grow us. Illness and death is always tragic.Michelle wrote:So, then, as a Christian grows, first in knowledge, then in freedom, he should become more and more physically perfect? It's the exact opposite that I witness in my life, bearing in mind I'm pretty advanced into middle-age. My loved ones seem to develop new infirmities every day, and I've already lost some dear Christian friends to disease. It seems pretty cruel to say that they had not been remade in the image of Christ since they were not healed, and yet Fidel Castro lingers on and on... I've got to agree, however, that the consummation will be the resurrection and in the new heaven and new earth, where there will be no sickness nor sorrow.Jim wrote: It is one of the very purposes of the incarnation of Christ, to heal us from the wound of Adam's sin. Christ Jesus incarnation, life, death and ressurection set us free from the bondages of Satan, Sin and most of all death. He laid the grown work, now it is up to us to grab hold of the grace given and take the medicine so to speak to heal. The three stages catharsis (purification), theoria (illumination, the knowledge of God) and theosis (the process of being freed from sin, Being united with God, divination) and is consummated in the ressurection.
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.
Re: What is the deal with healing?
I'm sorry that I misunderstood. I agree with what you said in your latest post.Jim wrote:You miss understood what I was saying. Physical ailments and death are part of this life, which eventually will be done away, but for now death and illness is still part of our world. I am not saying people will get physically better but it is used by our Lord to grow us. Illness and death is always tragic.
Re: What is the deal with healing?
Hi Michelle-
I have read and listened to an awful lot about healing because the topic interests me.
For balance, I would recommend listening to this 4 part series by Andrew Wommack called "God Wants You Well"- found here: http://www.awmi.net/extra/audio/1036
He lays out his case, while I cant agree with everything, I certainly believe that many Christians have "missed" it when it comes to healing.
At this site you can read what Bill Johnson has to say- he is pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, CA. Just click on the "healing" tab. http://www.bjm.org/questions.html#
Now, both of these guys do believe that healing is in the atonement. I dont think everything they say hinges on that, but a lot does.
TK
I have read and listened to an awful lot about healing because the topic interests me.
For balance, I would recommend listening to this 4 part series by Andrew Wommack called "God Wants You Well"- found here: http://www.awmi.net/extra/audio/1036
He lays out his case, while I cant agree with everything, I certainly believe that many Christians have "missed" it when it comes to healing.
At this site you can read what Bill Johnson has to say- he is pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, CA. Just click on the "healing" tab. http://www.bjm.org/questions.html#
Now, both of these guys do believe that healing is in the atonement. I dont think everything they say hinges on that, but a lot does.
TK
Re: What is the deal with healing?
Thank you, TK, I will listen when I get a chance.
You seem to be tentative about healing being in the atonement. Have I read you right?
Why do you think healing is so important, whatever it was that provided it?
You seem to be tentative about healing being in the atonement. Have I read you right?
Why do you think healing is so important, whatever it was that provided it?
Re: What is the deal with healing?
You maybe interested in this concerning both sickness and illness, sorry that I am not using my own word.Michelle wrote:Thank you, TK, I will listen when I get a chance.
You seem to be tentative about healing being in the atonement. Have I read you right?
Why do you think healing is so important, whatever it was that provided it?
Sickness exists in the world only because of sin. There would be no sickness at all, neither mental nor physical, if man had not sinned. According to Christ sickness is bondage to the devil. (Matthew 8:16, 12:22; Luke 4:40-41, 13:10-17) And Christ has come to "destroy ... the devil." (Hebrews 2:14) With Jesus the forgiveness of sins, the healing of the body, the destruction of the devil and the raising of the dead are all one and the same act of salvation.
For which is easier to say, "Your sins are forgiven," or to say "Rise and walk"? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins - He then said to the paralytic - "Rise, take up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home. (Matthew 9:4-7, Mark 2:9-12, Luke 5:23-25)
In that hour He cured many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were blind he bestowed sight. (Luke 7:21)
Doing these things Jesus showed that He is Christ the Messiah, the fulfillment of the prophets who brings the Kingdom of God to the world.
...the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the good news of the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he who is not scandalized at me. (Luke 7:22-23; cf. Isaiah 29:1 8- 19, 35:5-6, 61:1; Matthew 4:23-24, 11:4-6)
When one is delivered from sin and evil, one is also freed from sickness and death. In the Kingdom of God there will be "no sickness or sorrow or sighing, but life everlasting." (Requiem Kontakion of the Church)
When one is visited by sickness in this world, whether bodily or mental, he is a victim of the devil and the "sin of the world." (John 1:29) This does not mean that people are necessarily being personally punished with their diseases. It means rather, as in the case of those born with infirmities and children who are ill, that where sin abounds, sickness and disease are also rampant. It is the teaching of the Church that those who are innocently victimized by sickness, such as small children and retarded people, are certain to be saved in the Kingdom of God.
This is the teaching of the book of Genesis. God did not say to man, "Sin and I will kill you." He said, if and when you sin, "you will die." (Genesis 2:17, 3:3) Thus when man sins and ruins himself by evil, he brings the curse of sickness and suffering to the world for himself and his children; and his life becomes toil until he returns to the dust out of which he is made - and which he is by nature without the grace of God in his life. (cf. Genesis 3:17-19) It is in this sense that the "prince of this world" is the devil. (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11)
Given the sinfulness of the world, its bondage to the devil, its "groaning in travail" (cf Romans 8:19-23) until its salvation in Christ, God Himself uses sickness and death for His own providential purposes as the means for man's salvation. God is not the cause of sickness, suffering and death; but given their existence because of the devil's deceit and man's wickedness and sin, God employs them that man might be healed and saved in the forgiveness of sins. In this sense, and this sense only, can it be said that "God sends sickness to man."
When a spiritual person is sick he recognizes that his illness is caused by sin, his own and the sins of the world. He does not blame God for it, for he knows that God has not caused it and does not wish it for His servants. He knows as well, through the providential plan of God and the salvation of Christ, that his sickness will be healed. He knows also that if God so wills, he can be healed of his sickness in this life in order to have more time to serve God and man on earth, and to accomplish what he must according to God's plan. He also knows as well that the very sickness itself can be the means for serving God, and he accepts it in this way, offering it in faith and love for his own salvation and for the salvation of others.
There is no greater witness to the love of God and faith in Christ than sickness endured with faith and love. The one who bears his infirmities with virtue, with courage and patience, with faith and hope, with gladness and joy, is the greatest witness to divine salvation that can possibly be. Nothing can compare to such a person, for God's praise in distress and affliction is the greatest possible offering that man can make of his life on earth.
Every saint who ever lived suffered bodily infirmities. And all of them, virtually without exception - even when healing others by their prayers - did not ask for or receive deliverance for themselves. This is the case most evidently of Jesus Himself, the suffering servant of God.
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; as one from whom men hide their faces...
Surely He has borne our grieves, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, upon Him was the chastisement that healed us, and with His wounds we are healed...the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
And they made His grave with the wicked and with a rich man (i.e. Joseph of Arimathea, Matthew 27:57) in His death...when He makes Himself an offering for sin...(Isaiah 53, cf. Psalms 22, 38, 41)
Christ "poured out His soul to death" (Isaiah 53:12) when He was only in the third decade of His life. Many of the saints hardly lived longer, and virtually all suffered, as did St. Paul, from some "thorn in the flesh," normally understood as some bodily affliction.
...a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness," that the power of Christ may rest upon me...for when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Corinthians 12:7-10)
All spiritual persons follow the example of Christ and Saint Paul and all of the saints in their appreciation of sickness. They say to the Father, "Thy will be done," and transform their weakness, by the grace of God, into the means of salvation for themselves and others.
http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=204
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.
Re: What is the deal with healing?
Part 2 suffering
There is no life in this world without suffering. The cessation of suffering comes only in the Kingdom of God.
There are generally three sources of suffering in this world: suffering from the persecution of others in body and soul, suffering from sickness and disease, and suffering in spirit because of the sins of the world. There are only two possible ways to deal with such sufferings. Either one humbly accepts them and transforms them into the way of salvation for oneself and others; or one is defeated by them with rebellion and rejection, and so "curses God and dies" both physically and for eternity in the ages to come. (cf. Job 2:9-10)
We have seen already that "all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (I Timothy 3:12); and that Christians should "count it all joy" when they "meet various trials" (James 1:2), "rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name." (Acts 5:41)
We have also seen that those who suffer through sickness and disease with every virtue of Christ will receive "sufficient grace" from God to be strong in the Lord in their bodily weakness, and so direct their sufferings "not unto death" but to the "glory of God." (cf 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, John 11:4)
Since therefore Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of time in the flesh no longer by human passions, but by the will of God. (I Peter 4:1-2)
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is the church ... (Colossians 1:24)
So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed every day. For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling, so that by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we sigh with anxiety; not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord... (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:6)
The spiritual person, when suffering in the flesh, uses his afflictions to be set free from sin, and to be made "perfect through suffering" like Jesus Himself. (Hebrews 2:10) He knows that as his "outer nature is wasting away" he is being born into the Kingdom of God if he suffers in and with Jesus the Lord.
In a very real sense the most grievous suffering of all is not in the flesh but the spirit. This is the suffering which torments the soul when, by the grace of God and in the light of Christ, the spiritual person sees the utter futility, ugliness and pettiness of sin which is destroying men made in the image of God. According to one great theologian of the Church this suffering was the most grievous of all for the Lord Jesus Himself. (cf. Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitskii, 20th c., The Dogma of Redemption)
Jesus knew the fullness and perfection of the divine beauty of God; He knew His mercy and love, the glory of paradise, the goodness of His creation. Beholding all of this, given to man as a gift, and beholding it scorned and rejected in His own person, was infinitely more painful and torturing to the Lord than were any beatings and scourging and being nailed to the cross. For the cross itself was the great scandal of man's hatred and rejection of the love and light and life of God as given to the world in the person of Christ. Thus the agony and torment of the Lord in His being killed on the cross was the divine agony, in body and soul, of man's refusal of divine life. No greater agony than this can possibly exist, and no human mind can fathom the infinite scope of its horror and tragedy.
The spiritual person, according to the measure of grace given by God, participates spiritually in this agony of Christ. It is the greatest suffering of the saints, infinitely more unbearable than any external persecution or bodily disease. It is the torment of the soul over the utter foolishness of sin. It is the agony of love over those who are perishing. It was in such straightness of soul that the Apostle Paul could exclaim: "...I have great sorrow and anguish in my heart, for I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race." (Romans 9:3)
It is with this same agony of love that Saint Isaac of Syria could say about the saints, "if they were cast into fire ten times a day for the sake of their love for man, even that would seem to them to be too little." (Mystic Treatises, Wensinck, ed.) This same Saint Isaac himself was known to weep fervent tears of suffering love for all men, the whole of creation, and even the devil himself.
Thus the ultimate form of all suffering which leads to salvation is compassionate love for all that is perishing through the ridiculous foolishness of sin. Christ suffered from such love to the full and unlimited extension of His divinity. And each person suffers it as well to the extent that he or she is deified in Christ by the grace of the Spirit.
http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=205
If you want information on death go: http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=206
There is no life in this world without suffering. The cessation of suffering comes only in the Kingdom of God.
There are generally three sources of suffering in this world: suffering from the persecution of others in body and soul, suffering from sickness and disease, and suffering in spirit because of the sins of the world. There are only two possible ways to deal with such sufferings. Either one humbly accepts them and transforms them into the way of salvation for oneself and others; or one is defeated by them with rebellion and rejection, and so "curses God and dies" both physically and for eternity in the ages to come. (cf. Job 2:9-10)
We have seen already that "all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (I Timothy 3:12); and that Christians should "count it all joy" when they "meet various trials" (James 1:2), "rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name." (Acts 5:41)
We have also seen that those who suffer through sickness and disease with every virtue of Christ will receive "sufficient grace" from God to be strong in the Lord in their bodily weakness, and so direct their sufferings "not unto death" but to the "glory of God." (cf 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, John 11:4)
Since therefore Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of time in the flesh no longer by human passions, but by the will of God. (I Peter 4:1-2)
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is the church ... (Colossians 1:24)
So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed every day. For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling, so that by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we sigh with anxiety; not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord... (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:6)
The spiritual person, when suffering in the flesh, uses his afflictions to be set free from sin, and to be made "perfect through suffering" like Jesus Himself. (Hebrews 2:10) He knows that as his "outer nature is wasting away" he is being born into the Kingdom of God if he suffers in and with Jesus the Lord.
In a very real sense the most grievous suffering of all is not in the flesh but the spirit. This is the suffering which torments the soul when, by the grace of God and in the light of Christ, the spiritual person sees the utter futility, ugliness and pettiness of sin which is destroying men made in the image of God. According to one great theologian of the Church this suffering was the most grievous of all for the Lord Jesus Himself. (cf. Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitskii, 20th c., The Dogma of Redemption)
Jesus knew the fullness and perfection of the divine beauty of God; He knew His mercy and love, the glory of paradise, the goodness of His creation. Beholding all of this, given to man as a gift, and beholding it scorned and rejected in His own person, was infinitely more painful and torturing to the Lord than were any beatings and scourging and being nailed to the cross. For the cross itself was the great scandal of man's hatred and rejection of the love and light and life of God as given to the world in the person of Christ. Thus the agony and torment of the Lord in His being killed on the cross was the divine agony, in body and soul, of man's refusal of divine life. No greater agony than this can possibly exist, and no human mind can fathom the infinite scope of its horror and tragedy.
The spiritual person, according to the measure of grace given by God, participates spiritually in this agony of Christ. It is the greatest suffering of the saints, infinitely more unbearable than any external persecution or bodily disease. It is the torment of the soul over the utter foolishness of sin. It is the agony of love over those who are perishing. It was in such straightness of soul that the Apostle Paul could exclaim: "...I have great sorrow and anguish in my heart, for I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race." (Romans 9:3)
It is with this same agony of love that Saint Isaac of Syria could say about the saints, "if they were cast into fire ten times a day for the sake of their love for man, even that would seem to them to be too little." (Mystic Treatises, Wensinck, ed.) This same Saint Isaac himself was known to weep fervent tears of suffering love for all men, the whole of creation, and even the devil himself.
Thus the ultimate form of all suffering which leads to salvation is compassionate love for all that is perishing through the ridiculous foolishness of sin. Christ suffered from such love to the full and unlimited extension of His divinity. And each person suffers it as well to the extent that he or she is deified in Christ by the grace of the Spirit.
http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=205
If you want information on death go: http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=206
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.
Re: What is the deal with healing?
Thank you, Jim. Those quotes were great! Are you a member of the Orthodox Church by any chance?
Re: What is the deal with healing?
Yes and No, I am in process, I do attend the Divine Liturgy at St Annes in corvallis. My wife, needless to says is not to happy with the direction I have been heading so the Father has instructed me to take it slow and pray, pray, pray. The thing is I have tried to tell my wife that its not like I made a choice, its hard to go against a truth when you know it is true to the very soul of your being. In everyway though (not easy at all) I am living the orthodox life and look forward to full communion.Michelle wrote:Thank you, Jim. Those quotes were great! Are you a member of the Orthodox Church by any chance?
The irony is that I would lead small groups at my, how do I say this, current/former church, always gave the views of many faith traditions including orthodoxy. I was leading another study, a video series by focus on the family called the truth project. Well one presentation was on history and our identity in which within the baptist tradition I really had no identity. Then the next video was on God given spheres of authority, this one was about governments intervention into church and family, but I realized deep down he has done that with the leadership of the Church. I can't really explain the Huge diffrence between western christianity in all its form and orthodoxy, but western christianity seems awfully legalistic now.
I know I had started my journey to orthodoxy years ago, but wow.
Re: What is the deal with healing?
Regarding your first question- yes i do have some reservations. i have heard very good cases on both sides of the argument, from people i really respect. Mt. 8:16-17 almost seals it for me, but not quite. ("When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities, And bore our sicknesses.”)Michelle wrote:Thank you, TK, I will listen when I get a chance.
You seem to be tentative about healing being in the atonement. Have I read you right?
Why do you think healing is so important, whatever it was that provided it?
Regarding the second question- I believe that Jesus has commanded us to continue on with his mission and I believe that physical healing was part of his mission. I know that is very simplistic but in essence that is why I think it is important.
TK