A study in the use of the word "justify"in the New

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:04 am

Bob,

As Thomas & I have this little friendly debate goin on.....
1. I say amen to that! I have 'a long way to go' though. One of the things I still 'struggle' with is purity of thought. I mean its one thing to be under control with your words and actions among brothers. The 'flesh' in many ways still wants to assert its 'authority'. But the difference now is that my confidence is no longer in my own strenghth or ability to 'walk the walk'.

2. What is being 'changed' in me by the Lord is a deepening desire to obey Him out of love for Him, not 'fear'. In retrospect, when God 'began His good work in me', even before I percieved His hand upon me,
He was (and is) always gentile or strong as was necessary according to my needs. He is a True Father and worthy of our worship. "A broken and contrite heart the Lord does not despise"... There is a Psalm that comes to mind 32: 4-5..."I will confess my transgressions to the LORD. and you
forgave the guilt of my sin..." The LAW of God only, makes this confession possible. The blood of Christ only, can make it eternal through
His Atonement. God therefore by no means "aquitted the guilty". He gave us a FULL PARDON. AMEN?
1. I try to keep in mind where it says, "To the pure all things are pure." That way, if I find my mind drifting into impurity of any kind I know it's time to look to Him Who is pure...and refocus. I shoot for that state of purity. The more I do the closer I get....(long ways to go tho).

2. For me, His love gets quenched when I am ungrateful. Ingratitude might be my biggest sin. I thank Him when I realize I'm not grateful...that He let me see it!

I like yacking theology and it's important. Loving God & others is important too. I'm trying to make it all work together for the good, :)
God bless you, brother,

You too Thomas!
Rick
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Post by _Thomas » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:15 am

Hola Rick:

The People of God (who I believe are those who have faith in Jesus, Jew and Gentile alike) are and will remain justified by faith in Jesus whether individuals Christians sin and fall away or not.
The people of God are those who have faith in Christ. (by definition a jew does not) But the Church is made up of individuals , each who are justified. There is no such thing as cooperate salvation. All are saved by faith not by membership in a covenant , even though the faith includes one in a covenant.
If and when Christians do sin, they need to be reconciled to God through confession of sin/repentance.
Yes , but a Christian cannot be at the same time an unreconciled sinner and righteous.By that sin he becomes unrighteous by definition.

Sin is a matter of disobedience to the Law of God. Righteousness is judged on a basis of obedience. In the Old Covenant it was:
Romans 10
5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them.
And if he sinned , regained righteousness through atonement.

Atonement meaning: Reconciliation or an instance of reconciliation between God and humans.

and righteous meaning: Morally upright; without guilt or sin

In the New Covenant a Christian does not atone , they apply Christ's atonement by means of repentance , in order to be forgiven and be declared righteous. Being declared righteous is the definition of justification.

If one has faith one will repent. If one does not repent they , have no faith. And it is this loss of faith that takes one out of the covenant by loss of salvation.

as for Wright:

1. The question of justification is a matter of covenant membership

No , justification and covenant membership are a matter of faith.

2. The basis of this verdict is the representative death and resurrection of Jesus himself. In view of universal sin, God can only be in covenant with human beings if that sin is dealt with, and this has been achieved by God himself in the death of his Son (Rom. 3:24-26; 5:8-9). Jesus takes on himself the curse which would have prevented God’s promised blessing finding fulfillment (Gal. 3:10-14). The resurrection is God’s declaration that Jesus, and hence his people, are in the right before God (Rom. 4:24-25).

Justification covers only original sin? It is cooperate and is given to a people? see above.

3. The verdict issued in the present on the basis of faith (Rom. 3:21-26) correctly anticipates the verdict to be issued in the final judgment on the basis of the total life

The justification I have now can only correctly anticipate the final verdict if I am incapable of free will. Since I can at any time become reinslaved to sin and repudiate my faith , by my own choice , this statement cannot be true. (been there , done that)

All of the NT is aimed at the final judgment , in that sense it is all about eschatology. But while the judgment will be given in the future , it is all based on what you do now in the present If one concentrates only on the judgment , one ends up with the very God that Luther had problems with:
For I hated that word "righteousness of God," which, according to the use and custom of all the teachers, I had been taught to understand philosophically regarding the formal or active righteousness, as they call it, with which God is righteous and punishes the unrighteous sinner.

And you end up doing good to avoid punishment and not because you are saved. Besides isn't that a dispensational thing , to get yourself saved in order to avoid God's wrath?

Thomas

May God bless you both , Rick and Bob

or as they say here

Dios te bendiga y guarda
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Post by __id_1679 » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:35 am

Thank you Thomas!
Bless you in Jesus as well!

I am watching with interest your conversation with Rick. I wonder why Paidion hasn't jumped in. Maybe he is changing his view on justification?
Personally, I don't think the doctrine is "up for grabs"... Either Jesus "paid" and secured our redemption by His blood, or we are still "dead in trespass and sin"... Amen?

Hello Rick!

In Jesus,
Bob
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Post by _Paidion » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:49 am

I wonder why Paidion hasn't jumped in. Maybe he is changing his view on justification?
Did I reveal any "view on justification", Bob? I thought I merely quoted many verses which use the word "justify" and proposed three possible meanings based on those verses. If I have injected any "view" here, I would be pleased to learn of it.
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

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Post by _Homer » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:39 pm

Paidion,
Did I reveal any "view on justification", Bob? I thought I merely quoted many verses which use the word "justify" and proposed three possible meanings based on those verses. If I have injected any "view" here, I would be pleased to learn of it.
Perhaps they are aware that you reject imputed righteousness.

To all,

What seems to be overlooked in the necessity of confessing sins is the impossibility of confessing them all. By this I mean sins of ignorance which I am convinced occur more often than we realize:

Psalm 19:12 (NKJV)

12. Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.


We still need this cleansing, and how is it to be obtained if all sins must be confessed in order to be forgiven?

Consider Luke 18:13-14 (NKJV)

13. And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


This tax collector, who Jesus declared justified, confessed no particular sin; he confessed what he was. I do not disagree at all that it is important to confess particular sins, but is it not of more importance to confess our failure to be what we should be, and thus what we are? As James said, we all stumble in many ways, some of which are unknown to us.
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:07 pm

Hi Thomas & all, :)

I'm having a hard time following the discussion. Sorry.
You (Thomas) wrote:The people of God are those who have faith in Christ. (by definition a jew does not) But the Church is made up of individuals , each who are justified. There is no such thing as cooperate salvation. All are saved by faith not by membership in a covenant , even though the faith includes one in a covenant.
I don't recall saying anything about a "cooperate salvation" (and this is the first time I've ever heard of it). The corporate Body of Christ are not just one person; They/We are members of Christ and of one another: The Church, right? So the corporate People of God, the Church/Body of Christ, are in Covenant with Him, agreed?

I don't think we're on the same/same-page (so I'm just trying to get the context here)....

For further clarification:
Earlier, you (Thomas) wrote: The jews , not having the advantage of the atonement of Christ , must personally atone for their transgressions , i.e. made right again. Originally they did this through sacrifices in the Temple , however since AD 70:

We can still gain ritual atonement through deeds of loving-kindness. For it is written 'Lovingkindness I desire, not sacrifice.'" (Hosea 6:6)
Midrash Avot D'Rabbi Nathan 4:5

Which was why I posted:
The People of God (who I believe are those who have faith in Jesus, Jew and Gentile alike)....
You quoted from the Talmud/Mishnah in the present tense. So I thought perhaps you considered unbelieving Jews as being included among, or possibly, as The Chosen People. In your first quote (above) I think you've cleared this up. But it confused me.

There are some things I agree with from your last post but I'm not exactly following you (and/or "our" train of thought here). Though this thread has been a good one; I'm having problems focusing...maybe my quotes from Wright are too long, or we have too many sub-topics, I don't know (sorry).

I'm going to relisten to these lectures (and highly recommend them to all):
The Doctrine of Justification in the Work of N.T. Wright,
by Bill Wilder


Wilder brings up the pertinent issues in detail. I can't recommend these lectures enough as Wilder really clears things up. But it's kind of "heady" stuff, so you have to listen to each little "curve" in the presentation (and I often fall asleep, missing the last half, lol)....

Other than this, I'm going to spend some time resting and thanking the Good Lord for putting me in the right with Him. Be back later some time.
In Christ,
Rick
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Post by _Thomas » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:00 am

Hola Rick:

Sorry that should have been corporate not "cooperate salvation" , need to recheck when I spell check. Much of the problem is it's too big a subject to put in posts , and I don't want to be writing books.

Wright says things like:

Imputation of church’s sin to Christ , Imputation of Christ’s righteousness to his church. , The question of justification is a matter of covenant membership.

I suspect because of T.U.L.I.P. in particular "Irresistible Grace" and "Perserverence of the Saints (OSAS)" in which a person is elect and stayes elect with no choice in the matter. Therefore God's People , people of the New Covenant , the Church , the Elect , the Justified are all the same.If you are elect you are in the church and justified even though justification is a future verdict handed down at the Final Judgment. Corporate salvation-saved as a group.

My way of looking at it is this:

The New Covenant is a contract in which God promises justification on His part if we have faith on our part.

His Grace is given to all who hear His Word but many resist it. Those who do not resist it in effect sign this contract. It is then up to them to fulfill it by keeping faith. (by repentance when we sin)

Justification is a future sentence that is not fixed and is determined by your faith , it becomes fixed at death which may occur at any time.Whether or not you are at present justified depends , in effect , on your present state. You or Paul for that matter can say you are justified at present because you are assured by the presence of your faith.

Although , literally , it is a single future judgment , for practical purposes you are being judged all the time as your faith , and verdict ,change over time. The idea is to grow strong enough in your faith (sanctification) that this becomes less of a question over time.

And yet justification is a personal verdict. Membership in the Church , covenant etc. is a personal matter of faith

I quoted from the Talmud to show the relationship of atonement to justification. The OT jews are saved because of thier faith in a coming messiah but the modern jews must accept Christ.

The problem is that sometimes I'm not particularly clear.. My fault , sorry.

I've looked some at Bill Wilder site. I'm willing to say that as far as the eschatological question being that Christ fulfilled OT eschatology , I do believe he's right.

Need to look at it more.

Thomas

I think this pretty much leaves me and everyone else confused , so I'll leave it at that for now.
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Post by _Homer » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:27 am

Hola Thomas,

Pronounced "toe-moss"? :)

You wrote:
The New Covenant is a contract in which God promises justification on His part if we have faith on our part.

His Grace is given to all who hear His Word but many resist it. Those who do not resist it in effect sign this contract. It is then up to them to fulfill it by keeping faith. (by repentance when we sin)
See my earlier post on this thread regarding sins of ignorance. Are we "unjustified" during the period between the sin and repentance? Your view as stated would seem to indicate a continual losing and regaining of justification. Perhaps I am reading more into it than you meant.

In my view, we lose our position as justified if we reject Christ or, at some point, if we "keep on willfully sinning". Likewise if we will not repent when we become convicted of sin.

I agree with what you said about keeping faith. As you may know,
pistis can be translated "faith" or "faithfulness"; two sides of the same coin, so to speak.
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Post by _Thomas » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:35 pm

Hola Homer:

We can sin in thought , word or act , but as far as I know it has to be willful. I don't think we could sin in ignorance , but would need an example.
Your view as stated would seem to indicate a continual losing and regaining of justification. Perhaps I am reading more into it than you meant.
Generally , if we recognize the sin and are trying to overcome it , I wouldn't say we could be held to be unrighteous for the occasional setback. I don't see God as playing "gotcha" at every little mistake. That puts us back with Luther's "righteousness of God," that some like to beat over peoples heads.

But there is the all too common problem of people who consider what they are doing to not be sins at all (keep on willfully sinning) , or even more so those who self-justify. That is they know they are wrong but can come up with a very good excuse for considering that they are doing the right thing. And they consider themselves to be good Christians at the same time.

I could pray "forgive my trespasses as I forgive others" , and yet it took me years to forgive my ex-wife. And I believed myself correct at the time.

People can fool themselves , if you want to know how righteous you are try to find out what others say about you.

Sanctification is really learning insight about your own behavior and correcting it , thats what God really wants.

So , yes we can lose and regain our justification rather often.

Thomas


Señor Toe-MOSS , el gringo

Dios te bendiga y te guarda
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