Hello Homer,
Pardon the intrusion. Your comment; "...this is a most important matter for I believe we must truly forgive if we are to be forgiven. We need to know just what it means".
It seems to me forgivness in the Godly sense, is more about you as the forgiver than the one you forgive. It is a "release" from a demand for justice when you have been wronged. It is giving grace to one who does not deserve it. It also psychologically releases you from a kind of bondage
that insists upon revenge, or getting even when you have been unjustly treated. I do not think we can fully understand what Jesus meant until we come to know the degree of forgiveness God has granted us in Christ.
As far as trust is involved, thats entirely another matter. We are to be at peace with all men as it depends upon us, as the word teaches us. But to trust one who has wronged us can become a slippery slope I don't think the Lord is telling us to go down. Trust must be earned. Even then, I would "keep one eye open. Just my thoughts....
Peace in Him,
Bob
True Forgiveness
Hey Bob,
Welcome to the discussion. This thread is a carry-over from the thread "God is Green" on the General/Personal Questions Forum. (That is the most non-descriptive title for a thread, ever!) You've summarized the position of a number of the posters, but Paidion has some interesting rebuttals. It's a very good discussion, but you have to wade through military experiences, the definition of cubit, discussions how, and if, Christians with different viewpoints should be labeled, demands for ECF documentation about several doctrines, the definition of ad hominem, a defense of paedo-baptism, and, lately, justification. IF you can wade through all that, the discussion about forgiveness is very interesting.
Welcome to the discussion. This thread is a carry-over from the thread "God is Green" on the General/Personal Questions Forum. (That is the most non-descriptive title for a thread, ever!) You've summarized the position of a number of the posters, but Paidion has some interesting rebuttals. It's a very good discussion, but you have to wade through military experiences, the definition of cubit, discussions how, and if, Christians with different viewpoints should be labeled, demands for ECF documentation about several doctrines, the definition of ad hominem, a defense of paedo-baptism, and, lately, justification. IF you can wade through all that, the discussion about forgiveness is very interesting.
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Reason:
Reason:
I find considerable irony in this discussion. It seems to me Paidion has influenced Michelle and Rae to favorably consider his position, whereas I would have agreed with Paidion before Michelle and Ray posted their demurrers. I have in the past counselled people just as Paidion advocates and now am convinced I was wrong; I agree with what Bob wrote.
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Reason:
A Berean
Homer:
Sorrow and grief about some particular sin can lead to salvation from that sin ----- or it can lead to death. Even Godly grief is not itself repentance, but it works repentance.
Godly grief works repentance which leads to salvation, but the grief of the world system works death. [2 Corinthians 7:10]
So if the person you know truly had a change of heart and mind, he would not return to excessive drinking.
A student of mine in grade 1 from my first teaching experience in a remote one-room country school, fell into excessive drinking as a teenager and young man. He went through the Alcoholic anonymous program, but at the same time he became a true disciple of Christ, having truly repented of all his sin. He continued to attend AA meetings. In these meetings he was required to say, “My name is Walden Dorski [not his true name]. I am an alcoholic.” One day, Walden became convicted about saying this. He realized he had been lying. By the grace of God, he was no longer an alcoholic. He could take a drink or two and never go overboard. So he decided that in the next meeting he would share the truth. He knew he would get kicked out of AA, for the position of the organization is “once an alcoholic always an alcoholic.” So in the next meeting, Walden stood up and said, “My name is Walden Dorski. I am no longer and alcoholic. I have been delivered from alcoholism by the power of Jesus Christ.” Sure enough. He was kicked out of AA.
I have also found “Flee youthful lusts” and “Flee from these things” (referring back to “love of money” and “falling into temptation and into many harmful and hurtful desires.”
Surely a person might be tempted if he associates with a consorter with prostitutes. Or he might be tempted to be greedy if he associates with a greedy person. But Paul says that it is impossible to avoid this without going out of the world:
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with fornicators, not at all meaning the fornicators of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who is called “brother” if he is a fornicator or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber--not even to eat with such a one. [I Corinthians 5:9-11]
Paul takes it for granted that in living in this world we will have to associate with non-disciples who practise these things. It is not practically possible to “flee temptation” in these areas. Even Jesus didn’t “flee temptation”. He was tempted in all ways such as we are. In the desert, He didn’t try to flee from the temptation offered by Satan. Rather He faced it and conquered.
Paul asks us not to associate with one who is supposed to be a Christian “brother” if he continues to practise any of these things ---- even greed. So that means that we should not forgive our fellow Christians if they practise these things. We are to forgive them only if they repent, and begin a new life style in Christ, in which they “flee from” these things. Paul, as well as the Corinthian church forgave the man who had been copulating with his step-mother. After this forgiveness, he was completely restored, and treated just as if he had never done such a thing.
I am not suggesting that the mother should place her child back into the care of someone who has molested her child if there is any doubt whatever that the person has truly repented and turned from such things in abhorrence. But if he has truly repented, he will no longer do such things, and there will be no danger.
In the parable there is no indication that the king’s slave was ever removed from his position. The only issue seems to be the forgiving of the slave’s debt. When that slave refused to forgive his fellow slave’s debt, then the king repealed his own forgiveness and cast the slave into prison. There is no indication that the slave ever lost his position with the king until he was put into prison. Indeed, was it not because the man was the king’s slave that the king had the authority to put him into prison? Being unwilling to forgive a debt is not a crime. People are not normally put into prison for that.Paidion,
I'm still working through this one. You wrote:
quote:Forgiveness and trust have two different meanings. But that does not imply the following sentence is false:
"If A forgives B, then A trusts B."
But can you prove that "If A truly forgives B, A must completely trust B"?
It would seem that in the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35, after the King forgave the debt of the servant, the King should have restored the servant to his former position of trust but this does not seem to have been in Jesus mind. It would have made the parable an even more astonishing story if so.
If she truly repents, he ought to forgive her. Divorcing her for adultery should happen only if she does not repent.Also it would seem that a husband could never divorce a wife for adultery if she said she repented, no matter how many times this occured.
Should the person be released from obligation if he does not repent? How about God’s forgiveness? Does He “treat us in a loving manner” if we do not repent? Or does he bring us into judgment? Does He forgive us from our obligation to him if we do not repent ------ let us off the hook, so that we can continue to sin with impunity?I believe that forgiveness means releasing the other person from an obligation if they are unable to make restitution and treating the other person in a loving manner.
The person you know was doubtless very grieved about the fact that he kept falling into his alcohol problem over and over. But is that repentance? “Repentance” literally means having a change of mind about the way one lives. If he had truly repented ---had a change of mind and heart about his excessive drinking, he would not “fall off the wagon” over and over.I know someone who, I am convinced, truly loves Jesus. He has a problem with alcohol, and has a history of falling off the wagon and repenting with bitter tears. "He who has been forgiven much, loves much." I'm sure he loves Jesus more than many Christians. Yet do I trust him with alcohol? I have little confidence that he could resist if he was put in a tempting situation.
Sorrow and grief about some particular sin can lead to salvation from that sin ----- or it can lead to death. Even Godly grief is not itself repentance, but it works repentance.
Godly grief works repentance which leads to salvation, but the grief of the world system works death. [2 Corinthians 7:10]
So if the person you know truly had a change of heart and mind, he would not return to excessive drinking.
A student of mine in grade 1 from my first teaching experience in a remote one-room country school, fell into excessive drinking as a teenager and young man. He went through the Alcoholic anonymous program, but at the same time he became a true disciple of Christ, having truly repented of all his sin. He continued to attend AA meetings. In these meetings he was required to say, “My name is Walden Dorski [not his true name]. I am an alcoholic.” One day, Walden became convicted about saying this. He realized he had been lying. By the grace of God, he was no longer an alcoholic. He could take a drink or two and never go overboard. So he decided that in the next meeting he would share the truth. He knew he would get kicked out of AA, for the position of the organization is “once an alcoholic always an alcoholic.” So in the next meeting, Walden stood up and said, “My name is Walden Dorski. I am no longer and alcoholic. I have been delivered from alcoholism by the power of Jesus Christ.” Sure enough. He was kicked out of AA.
Who tells us to “flee from temptation”? I have been unable to find this injuction in the Bible. In the King James, I have found, “Flee from fornication”. (The Greek masculine Greek word “pornos” translated “fornication” means “consorting with prostitutes” and the feminine form “pornā” means “prostituting oneself”)We are told to "flee from temptation". We know where we are weak, or we ought to. How then could a mother place her daughter in the care of someone who had molested her child, no matter how much he said he had repented? Trust, or faith in another, confidence they will do the right thing in face of a temptation where they have a demonstrated past history of failure would seem to be not only unwise but wrong. If we are to flee temptation, why would we want to tempt a weak brother to show our forgiveness of him?
I have also found “Flee youthful lusts” and “Flee from these things” (referring back to “love of money” and “falling into temptation and into many harmful and hurtful desires.”
Surely a person might be tempted if he associates with a consorter with prostitutes. Or he might be tempted to be greedy if he associates with a greedy person. But Paul says that it is impossible to avoid this without going out of the world:
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with fornicators, not at all meaning the fornicators of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who is called “brother” if he is a fornicator or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber--not even to eat with such a one. [I Corinthians 5:9-11]
Paul takes it for granted that in living in this world we will have to associate with non-disciples who practise these things. It is not practically possible to “flee temptation” in these areas. Even Jesus didn’t “flee temptation”. He was tempted in all ways such as we are. In the desert, He didn’t try to flee from the temptation offered by Satan. Rather He faced it and conquered.
Paul asks us not to associate with one who is supposed to be a Christian “brother” if he continues to practise any of these things ---- even greed. So that means that we should not forgive our fellow Christians if they practise these things. We are to forgive them only if they repent, and begin a new life style in Christ, in which they “flee from” these things. Paul, as well as the Corinthian church forgave the man who had been copulating with his step-mother. After this forgiveness, he was completely restored, and treated just as if he had never done such a thing.
I am not suggesting that the mother should place her child back into the care of someone who has molested her child if there is any doubt whatever that the person has truly repented and turned from such things in abhorrence. But if he has truly repented, he will no longer do such things, and there will be no danger.
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Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
See? It's very interesting, no?Homer wrote:I find considerable irony in this discussion. It seems to me Paidion has influenced Michelle and Rae to favorably consider his position, whereas I would have agreed with Paidion before Michelle and Ray posted their demurrers. I have in the past counselled people just as Paidion advocates and now am convinced I was wrong; I agree with what Bob wrote.
Are you saying that if a person struggles with a particular sin, that person has not truly repented and therefore has not received forgiveness for that sin? Do you believe that we can live a truly sinless life during this lifetime?Paidion wrote:Sorrow and grief about some particular sin can lead to salvation from that sin ----- or it can lead to death. Even Godly grief is not itself repentance, but it works repentance.
Godly grief works repentance which leads to salvation, but the grief of the world system works death. [2 Corinthians 7:10]
So if the person you know truly had a change of heart and mind, he would not return to excessive drinking.
Paidion wrote:I am not suggesting that the mother should place her child back into the care of someone who has molested her child if there is any doubt whatever that the person has truly repented and turned from such things in abhorrence. But if he has truly repented, he will no longer do such things, and there will be no danger.
But how is that mother to know? If the molester has truly repented and she doesn't trust him, it seems that she has withheld forgiveness, putting herself in a precarious position in regard to her own forgiveness from God. If she does trust him, and he has not 'truly repented', she puts her daughter at risk of further abuse, as well as herself at risk of being accused of child neglect. I can't get past my maternal instincts to be protective (and my own daughter is now 26!) I'm afraid that I would risk not being forgiving enough.
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Reason:
michelle wrote:
TK
and i am sure that God would understand, perfectly, in that situation. He doesnt ask us to risk the welfare and innocence of our children to "test" how forgiving me are. that's nonsense, IMO.I'm afraid that I would risk not being forgiving enough.
TK
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Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
I think that we've probably overused the example, but I just can't get past it. I just don't think that forgiveness means the same thing as absolute trust. I think Traveler expressed my position very well earlier in this thread.TK wrote:michelle wrote:
and i am sure that God would understand, perfectly, in that situation. He doesnt ask us to risk the welfare and innocence of our children to "test" how forgiving me are. that's nonsense, IMO.I'm afraid that I would risk not being forgiving enough.
TK
As far as trust is involved, thats entirely another matter. We are to be at peace with all men as it depends upon us, as the word teaches us. But to trust one who has wronged us can become a slippery slope I don't think the Lord is telling us to go down. Trust must be earned. Even then, I would "keep one eye open. Just my thoughts....
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Reason:
I can't imagine that a person who has been convicted of a sexual crime and, then, converted, would (even) think to ask to be put into an "iffy" situation. And, if asked, they would most certainly decline.
On Focus on the Family radio I heard a two segment testimony of David Berkowitz, "the son of Sam." He said that though he knows God has forgiven him, he can't and doesn't expect the families of those he murdered to forgive him. He doesn't think he deserves to live and believes he should serve his life sentence: at minimum.
Let's say that Berkowitz would be released at some point. Would or should he seek employment as a night security officer? (his crimes were committed at night time around various buildings and in secluded areas).
Maybe this isn't the best example of what I'm trying to say.
I am a former alcoholic.
When I really needed work I saw ads for bartenders and convenience store clerks. Those options were out of the question for me or at least weren't my "first options" for obvious reasons.
A Christian friend of mine suggested I take one of these jobs. But they didn't know I am an ex alcoholic. If they had know this, I really doubt they would have made the suggestion....
I imagine I could "do" one of these jobs without drinking. Sure...if I absolutely had to. But I would not take the jobs for other reasons (the selling of alcohol by a Christian also goes against my conscience).
Anyway, I'm going to go to a rare AA meeting now...(I go from time to time coz I know some ppl there...not coz I "believe" everything AA teaches).
Rick
On Focus on the Family radio I heard a two segment testimony of David Berkowitz, "the son of Sam." He said that though he knows God has forgiven him, he can't and doesn't expect the families of those he murdered to forgive him. He doesn't think he deserves to live and believes he should serve his life sentence: at minimum.
Let's say that Berkowitz would be released at some point. Would or should he seek employment as a night security officer? (his crimes were committed at night time around various buildings and in secluded areas).
Maybe this isn't the best example of what I'm trying to say.
I am a former alcoholic.
When I really needed work I saw ads for bartenders and convenience store clerks. Those options were out of the question for me or at least weren't my "first options" for obvious reasons.
A Christian friend of mine suggested I take one of these jobs. But they didn't know I am an ex alcoholic. If they had know this, I really doubt they would have made the suggestion....
I imagine I could "do" one of these jobs without drinking. Sure...if I absolutely had to. But I would not take the jobs for other reasons (the selling of alcohol by a Christian also goes against my conscience).
Anyway, I'm going to go to a rare AA meeting now...(I go from time to time coz I know some ppl there...not coz I "believe" everything AA teaches).
Rick
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Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Hi Rick,
I know what I'm going to ask are kind of a personal questions, but the concept of repentance including the reality of "no longer being tempted to sin" is niggling at my brain a lot today... I don't want you to answer it if you feel that it "puts you on the spot", OK?
Here goes...
When you said:
Earlier, back when this discussion was in the 'God is Green' thread, I admitted that I wasn't sure I could withstand temptation (and indeed did succumb, once) if I came across certain kinds of drugs. I'm starting to worry that I'm lacking something when it comes to my repentance.
I know what I'm going to ask are kind of a personal questions, but the concept of repentance including the reality of "no longer being tempted to sin" is niggling at my brain a lot today... I don't want you to answer it if you feel that it "puts you on the spot", OK?
Here goes...
When you said:
Did you mean that you didn't want to place yourself in the pathway of temptation day after day? Do you ever think about drinking anymore?I am a former alcoholic.
When I really needed work I saw ads for bartenders and convenience store clerks. Those options were out of the question for me or at least weren't my "first options" for obvious reasons.
Earlier, back when this discussion was in the 'God is Green' thread, I admitted that I wasn't sure I could withstand temptation (and indeed did succumb, once) if I came across certain kinds of drugs. I'm starting to worry that I'm lacking something when it comes to my repentance.
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Reason:
I certainly didn’t have that in mind! I am saying that if a person has truly repented, he will, by the enabling grace of God, through the sacrifice of Christ, be able to overcome any particular sin. If he continues to practise that sin, then he has not repented. Maybe he has been convicted of it, even wept about it. Maybe he has wanted it out of his life on one level, but on a deeper level he still wants to do it. So he has not really had a change of mind and heart about it to the extent that he is repulsed by it, abhors it, and turns completely from it.Paidion wrote:Are you saying that if a person struggles with a particular sin, that person has not truly repented and therefore has not received forgiveness for that sin?Sorrow and grief about some particular sin can lead to salvation from that sin ----- or it can lead to death. Even Godly grief is not itself repentance, but it works repentance.
Godly grief works repentance which leads to salvation, but the grief of the world system works death. [2 Corinthians 7:10]
So if the person you know truly had a change of heart and mind, he would not return to excessive drinking.
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as He is righteous. He who practises sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God practises sin; for God’s nature remains in him, and he [possibly a reference to Christ within] cannot sin because he is born of God. [I John 3:7-9]
It may be that there is a process of repentance. A change of mind about a particular sin may need time to be complete. But I think as long as one still chooses to do it habitually, he has not had a complete change of mind.
People may have a struggle between their “surface will” and their “deeper will”. Here is an example of such a struggle. Joe Bloe knows that smoking is a causal factor in the development of lung cancer, emphysema, and other serious respiratory illnesses. He wants to extend his life and well being by stopping smoking. But his desire for the calming effect of smoking, or whatever else he gets out of it outweighs his desire for longer life and well being. In many cases immediate pleasure seems to outweigh long term health and well being. Joe still wants to smoke. He hasn’t changed his mind (repented) about smoking to the extent that he is willing to give it up.
Yes, I do. Otherwise, an injunction such as the following would not make sense:Do you believe that we can live a truly sinless life during this lifetime?
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." [I Peter 1:14-1]
Will God ask us to be holy as He is holy, if it is an impossible state of affairs to be holy?
Jesus said :
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. [Matthew 5:48]
Would Jesus ask His disciples to be perfect like the heavenly Father, if it were impossible?
Now let me ask you, “Is it possible to be sinless for a single minute?”. If the answer is “yes” then it would seem possible to remain sinless for 2 minutes ---- for 5 minutes ---- for an hour--- for a day ---- for a week ---- for a month—for a year --- for a life time.
In all probability, we will stumble. But we need not be discouraged. If we are on the path to perfection (completion), God justifies us. He sees the end of the salvation process, when we will be conformed to the image of Christ. So we need not be discouraged when we fail. It does not mean that we have not repented. However, if we continue to sin, we should be concerned, and make every effort to repent and to coöperate with the enabling grace of God so that we might be delivered from our practice of sin through Christ’s precious sacrifice.
If the former molester has truly repented, the mother may “know” by the sincerity of his asking for forgiveness, and by his whole demeanor and body language combined with God’s assurance to the mother. However, if she has withheld forgiveness on the ground that she does not have full assurance of his repentance, then I am certain God will not withhold his forgiveness of the mother on this ground. But if she does have full assurance of his repentance, but still withholds forgiveness, she may be in trouble with God.Paidion wrote:But how is that mother to know? If the molester has truly repented and she doesn't trust him, it seems that she has withheld forgiveness, putting herself in a precarious position in regard to her own forgiveness from God.I am not suggesting that the mother should place her child back into the care of someone who has molested her child if there is any doubt whatever that the person has truly repented and turned from such things in abhorrence. But if he has truly repented, he will no longer do such things, and there will be no danger.
That is true. If he has not truly repented, he ought not to be forgiven. One of the problems of our modern society is “easy forgiveness”, which is not really forgiveness at all, but is a letting the offender off the hook. This is a serious matter, since the offender thinks he can get away “scott free” and continues to offend.If she does trust him, and he has not 'truly repented', she puts her daughter at risk of further abuse, as well as herself at risk of being accused of child neglect.
That would be a whole lot better than offering easy forgiveness to a person who has not truly repented.I can't get past my maternal instincts to be protective (and my own daughter is now 26!) I'm afraid that I would risk not being forgiving enough.
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Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald