Should Christians go to war?

Post by **_JC** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:08 am

djeaton and Derek,

It seems you are both following your own conscience in this matter and neither of you are, in my opinion, being disobedient to the teachings of Christ. Derek, like myself, can't reconcile national war and the sermon on the mount. Djeaton doesn't necessarily see a problem there and seems just as concerned to uphold the command of Christ to love all people.

People like Derek and I often get criticized for taking the pacifist stance when it comes to defending national interests. I greatly enjoy things like freedom and safety but I will not disobey my conscience in order to maintain such things. Jesus didn't, and neither did Paul, James, Stephen or Peter.

Though I can't personally understand Christians wanting to kill their enemies in war, I won't judge those who do so. If they feel they are following the Royal Law in doing this, their own conscience will either clear them or condemn them before God. We are all accountible to our conscience in gray areas, even if some oppose the idea that it's even a gray area. If followers of Christ can have differing opinions, it's certainly gray to me.

Post by **_roblaine** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:31 am

Hi Derek,

You would inevitably have to kill innocent people for one thing. There is no such thing as a war where this does not happen.

I would again have to disagree. I don't believe each soldiers will inevitably kill innocent people. but if your thought is, that by association with the military and my involvement in combat, I would be involved with the killing of innocent people, then I would agree. But every tax-paying citizen would be guilty on these bases.

When serving in the military, you will have to pledge to do what you are told, putting you under the yoke of those whose out rank you, whether they have Godly motives or not.

I have never taken such and oath, but I believe the oath is to uphold the constitution, which is not evil or ungodly. If a soldier is asked to carry out a task that would conflict with their religious beliefs, I believe they can appeal on such ground. This may result in a dishonorable discharge.

Putting the inevitability of killing innocents aside, what if you had to fight another brother, who is merely "defending his country" and his family the same as you? He has made his judgment call on whether the war is right or not by hearing his country's angle on it as well. Is loyalty to someone’s country (of which we can only be said to be "passing through" biblically, as opposed to real citizens) enough to kill one who truly does share the same citizenship as ourselves? The citizenship in heaven.

I think you may have misunderstood me. I didn't say I would join the military because of loyalty to my country, but rather I could in the defense of the innocent. It would be my hopes that all would have the same motives for joining the military, but I can't talk to each person shooting at me to determine their motives.

This is true, and since I am ignorant of military operation, I can only say that I think, that even those in these positions can be called upon to fight if needed. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I'm not sure either. But I know that there are some military positions that don't require combat.

Robin

Post by **_Derek** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:39 pm

Quote:
You would inevitably have to kill innocent people for one thing. There is no such thing as a war where this does not happen.

I would again have to disagree. I don't believe each soldiers will inevitably kill innocent people. but if your thought is, that by association with the military and my involvement in combat, I would be involved with the killing of innocent people, then I would agree. But every tax-paying citizen would be guilty on these bases.

There is not a war, that has not resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians. Not a modern war anyway. Take Hiroshima, for example, where 200,000 people were killed by the atom bomb, and it's after effects. I am not saying every individual will have to do so, but the military, of which one would be an active member, does kill innocent people. I'm not saying that they do it on purpose or anything, but rather it's just what has to happen in pursuit of the "greater good" (i.e. pragmatism).

Quote:
When serving in the military, you will have to pledge to do what you are told, putting you under the yoke of those whose out rank you, whether they have Godly motives or not.

I have never taken such and oath, but I believe the oath is to uphold the constitution, which is not evil or ungodly. If a soldier is asked to carry out a task that would conflict with their religious beliefs, I believe they can appeal on such ground. This may result in a dishonorable discharge.

So why join in the first place, if you are not planning on doing what you are commanded to do? I am not sure what the constitution, (unfortuantly, another area of ignorance for me), has to say about war.

Quote:
Putting the inevitability of killing innocents aside, what if you had to fight another brother, who is merely "defending his country" and his family the same as you? He has made his judgment call on whether the war is right or not by hearing his country's angle on it as well. Is loyalty to someone’s country (of which we can only be said to be "passing through" biblically, as opposed to real citizens) enough to kill one who truly does share the same citizenship as ourselves? The citizenship in heaven.
I think you may have misunderstood me. I didn't say I would join the military because of loyalty to my country, but rather I could in the defense of the innocent. It would be my hopes that all would have the same motives for joining the military, but I can't talk to each person shooting at me to determine their motives.

You are not addressing the issue I'm raising. What about the Christians on the other side? Perhaps there are none in the current war, but that is beside the point. There are always those on the "bad guys team", (i.e. not America), who are defending their families as well, and upholding whatever principles their culture has instilled in them.

And again, though you may not have to do it yourself in every instance, innocent people will die in the place we are fighting. My point is, is it ok to kill the innocent to protect the innocent?

When it comes down to it, I just think that the case for a more pacifist position is strongly supported by the scriptures, and the behaviour of the primitive Christians. I am not standing in judgement of those that see this differently at all. I do believe that this is a matter of conscience. Better men than me feel very differently than I do about this. Let every man be convinced in his own mind.

God bless bro,

Post by **_Derek** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:00 pm

JC wrote:djeaton and Derek,

It seems you are both following your own conscience in this matter and neither of you are, in my opinion, being disobedient to the teachings of Christ. Derek, like myself, can't reconcile national war and the sermon on the mount. Djeaton doesn't necessarily see a problem there and seems just as concerned to uphold the command of Christ to love all people.

People like Derek and I often get criticized for taking the pacifist stance when it comes to defending national interests. I greatly enjoy things like freedom and safety but I will not disobey my conscience in order to maintain such things. Jesus didn't, and neither did Paul, James, Stephen or Peter.

Though I can't personally understand Christians wanting to kill their enemies in war, I won't judge those who do so. If they feel they are following the Royal Law in doing this, their own conscience will either clear them or condemn them before God. We are all accountible to our conscience in gray areas, even if some oppose the idea that it's even a gray area. If followers of Christ can have differing opinions, it's certainly gray to me.

Well said, JC.

Post by **_roblaine** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:41 pm

Hello Derek, thanks for replying.

I wrote:

I would again have to disagree. I don't believe each soldiers will inevitably kill innocent people. but if your thought is, that by association with the military and my involvement in combat, I would be involved with the killing of innocent people, then I would agree. But every tax-paying citizen would be guilty on these bases.

You wrote:

There is not a war, that has not resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians. Not a modern war anyway. Take Hiroshima, for example, where 200,000 people were killed by the atom bomb, and it's after effects. I am not saying every individual will have to do so, but the military, of which one would be an active member, does kill innocent people. I'm not saying that they do it on purpose or anything, but rather it's just what has to happen in pursuit of the "greater good" (i.e. pragmatism).

So you are claiming guilt by association? I thought that might be what you were alluding to. So why do you pay taxes(if you do)? Are you not supporting the military and their actions that result in the death of innocent people? And if I served in the military and did not kill innocent people, do you think I should be guilty of sins committed by others in the military? I think not.

So why join in the first place, if you are not planning on doing what you are commanded to do? I am not sure what the constitution, (unfortuantly, another area of ignorance for me), has to say about war.

If I were to Join (which I do not plan on) it would have to require a case where I was needed in order to serve and protect the innocent.

You are not addressing the issue I'm raising. What about the Christians on the other side? Perhaps there are none in the current war, but that is beside the point. There are always those on the "bad guys team", (i.e. not America), who are defending their families as well, and upholding whatever principles their culture has instilled in them.

Could one be a Christian and oppose the protection of innocent people?

And again, though you may not have to do it yourself in every instance, innocent people will die in the place we are fighting. My point is, is it ok to kill the innocent to protect the innocent?

Perhaps. If the killing of 50 innocent people would result in the protection and safety of thousands than I would say yes. This of course is the thought behind not negotiating with terrorists. If you negotiate with a terrorist for the release of 1 innocent person it only encourages the killing of more innocent people.

When it comes down to it, I just think that the case for a more pacifist position is strongly supported by the scriptures, and the behaviour of the primitive Christians. I am not standing in judgement of those that see this differently at all. I do believe that this is a matter of conscience. Better men than me feel very differently than I do about this. Let every man be convinced in his own mind.

I think we agree here brother

.

Thank you,
Robin

Post by **_Derek** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:45 am

So you are claiming guilt by association? I thought that might be what you were alluding to. So why do you pay taxes(if you do)? Are you not supporting the military and their actions that result in the death of innocent people? And if I served in the military and did not kill innocent people, do you think I should be guilty of sins committed by others in the military? I think not.

It is illegal for me to withhold taxes from the government. In fulfilling that law, and allowing them to take my money, I have no say in where it goes. That's a lot different than blowing some guys head off with a machine gun, if you ask me. I realize that it is also illegal for me to not serve in the event that I'm drafted. However, when serving in the military I will be forced to directly disobey the commands of Christ concerning my enemy.

And no, I don't think you would be guitly of sins that you did not commit. However, I am not talking about the atrocious act of willingly killing an innocent person. I am speaking of "collateral damage". The killing of an innocent who just happens to be around when you blow up the "bad guy". I don't think that a pragmatic "for the greater good" kind of reasoning justifies the killing of innocent people.

Could one be a Christian and oppose the protection of innocent people?

I don't think they could, however, that's not what I said. I said that "There are always those on the "bad guys team", (i.e. not America), who are defending their families as well, and upholding whatever principles their culture has instilled in them." Surely you don't think that it's impossible to be a Christian if you're fighting America? While the government of one of our enemies may be evil, the soldiers are convinced that they are right, (just like we are), they think that they are fighting for a just cause, and are fighting to "protect the innocent" people in their families, just like we are.

You still haven't addressed the question of killing the brethren that are in these countries. It is possible that there are brothers in the enemie's army, and there are more than likely to be Christian civilians as well.

Perhaps. If the killing of 50 innocent people would result in the protection and safety of thousands than I would say yes.

I am not sure what to say to this, except for I disagree. I can't see the justice in ever killing innocent people. Let alone a Christian doing it. This is pragmatism, where the ends justify the means. I don't see how God could be glorified by a Christian killing innocent people under any circumstances.

Anyway, I'm really not interested in discussing this along these hypothetical lines anymore. If you would like to discuss some of the relevant scriptures, we could.

God bless,

Post by **_AARONDISNEY** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:28 am

Derek said -

It is illegal for me to withhold taxes from the government. In fulfilling that law, and allowing them to take my money, I have no say in where it goes.

First off - I'm really enjoying reading both of your opinions. I tend to lean more to the side that joining the military is not so bad a thing.

...but then Paul said this....
Rom 14:2-4
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

So I don't believe we need to think of either side of this opinion as unChristian or in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ. Maybe if it were down to the point where you have a gun in your hand and there's a man waiting for your bullet from the other side, then you may have to face that situation, but being involved in the military when a war is going on seem to me a different thing altogether (though that's just my opinion).

I wanted to just comment quickly on Derek's assertion that he has less to do with the killing of individuals in combat than does the average soldier that does not kill a member of the enemy's troops (or citizen).

How can you say that you have less to do with it than does this (also innocent) man? If you pay to support it with your money, even if it is the law, you are still supporting it. The perfect law of liberty (James 1:25) supercedes the laws of this nation. It's always been my understanding that if the law of this country tells me to do something that will force me into disobedience to Christ, I should not do it, even if it's paying taxes for the knowing 'murder' of innocent lives.

What if there is federal taxes taken from us to use for abortions - would you still pay taxes then? Well, I'll admit, I probably would for the very same reason you gave. I'm not certain that I would though. It's hard to say right now. But I would be taking part in an evil thing with my money.

Jesus told Peter to pay the money found by catching the fish to the Roman government as their tax money, and the Roman government did not do only godly things (to say the least) with that money. But by paying into it, they were involved in every process of the Roman government.

I don't see how this differs from being in the military. You can refuse to do either. You can refuse to be in the military and you'll have no repercussions from doing so. You can also refuse to pay taxes. You WILL have repercussions from doing that. But should we view punishment in this world for doing God's will as a reason not to?

In my opinion, I'll have to answer for every decision I make. If I vote for a presidential candidate that supports liberal activist pro-choice Supreme Court Justices, I'll be aiding the cause of abortion. Much the same, if I support a president that will knowingly kill innocent people, I am supporting the same thing....

I know my thoughts are rambling here and I seem to be on both sides of the issue.

But basicall what I wanted to whittle down to was this....
From what I understand about it, Derek, it seems you feel that to pay money into a system that is funding evil, you are part of that evil. Do you feel that you should not pay taxes?

Post by **_roblaine** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:55 am

Hi Derek,
I hope that you are not getting the imprerssion that I am a war mongering jerk.

It is illegal for me to withhold taxes from the government. In fulfilling that law, and allowing them to take my money, I have no say in where it goes. That's a lot different than blowing some guys head off with a machine gun, if you ask me. I realize that it is also illegal for me to not serve in the event that I'm drafted. However, when serving in the military I will be forced to directly disobey the commands of Christ concerning my enemy.

Some are tax protesters, and others may choose to renounce their citizenship and move to Switzerland, but this would require a sacrifice to great for many.

And no, I don't think you would be guitly of sins that you did not commit. However, I am not talking about the atrocious act of willingly killing an innocent person. I am speaking of "collateral damage". The killing of an innocent who just happens to be around when you blow up the "bad guy". I don't think that a pragmatic "for the greater good" kind of reasoning justifies the killing of innocent people.

I don't believe that everyone in the military is guilty of "collateral damage". However I'm not sure collateral damage would be a sin in some cases. For example, a police man chase a robber in a high speed chase may result in a car accident that would kill innocent bystanders. Should police officers not chase criminals? I know that some cities have taken this stance, but the result is they never catch the criminal, and it encourages running from police officers. Also I would like to say that if an enemy is using the public as a shield, by putting military bases near schools and homes, then the responsibility lays the them.

Personally I have a higher view of our military. Our soldiers follow the rules of engagement. Much has been done to limit the collateral damage that you speak of, with the development of smart bombs. The US does not engage in carpet bombing as they did in WWII and Vietnam.

Take for example the current war in Iraq. the great majority of civilian deaths are caused by infighting between Sunnis and Shiites, and it is well known that if the US does not stay engaged for the foreseeable future, the blood shed would be much worse. There would be a mass killing of Sunnis, Kurds, and I'm sure all Christians, in Iraq. So the current involvement of US troops is saving lives.

I don't think they could, however, that's not what I said. I said that "There are always those on the "bad guys team", (i.e. not America), who are defending their families as well, and upholding whatever principles their culture has instilled in them." Surely you don't think that it's impossible to be a Christian if you're fighting America? While the government of one of our enemies may be evil, the soldiers are convinced that they are right, (just like we are), they think that they are fighting for a just cause, and are fighting to "protect the innocent" people in their families, just like we are.

Is the US involved in Killing families? The US engages armed militia only. It is the enemies that will use the deaths of our families in order secure a Victory (911, Suicide bombing in night clubs, and busses).

I can't help but notice that you use "the bad guy’s team" with tongue and cheek. Do you believe that those we fight now are the good guys?

You still haven't addressed the question of killing the brethren that are in these countries. It is possible that there are brothers in the enemie's army, and there are more than likely to be Christian civilians as well.

I would be saddened to find out if any of my brethren were killed. However, even my brethren would know the risk taken if they chose to take the battle field.

I am not sure what to say to this, except for I disagree. I can't see the justice in ever killing innocent people. Let alone a Christian doing it. This is pragmatism, where the ends justify the means. I don't see how God could be glorified by a Christian killing innocent people under any circumstances.

It may seem harsh, and I considered not writing it all together, because I'm sure it makes me sound completely unloving. However, the thought of sacrificing innocent blood for the sake of others is not all that un-Christian.

Anyway, I'm really not interested in discussing this along these hypothetical lines anymore. If you would like to discuss some of the relevant scriptures, we could.

Okay Derek. I would be happy to discuss any relevant scripture on this as well.

Thanks,
Robin

Post by **_Derek** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:04 pm

Hi Derek,
I hope that you are not getting the imprerssion that I am a war mongering jerk.

=Robin! Just kidding.

I don't believe that everyone in the military is guilty of "collateral damage". However I'm not sure collateral damage would be a sin in some cases.

I dont' think I said it was a sin.

Personally I have a higher view of our military. Our soldiers follow the rules of engagement. Much has been done to limit the collateral damage that you speak of, with the development of smart bombs. The US does not engage in carpet bombing as they did in WWII and Vietnam.

I hope I'm not giving the impression that I have a low view of the military. I pray for our troops. I don't have anything against them.

Is the US involved in Killing families? The US engages armed militia only. It is the enemies that will use the deaths of our families in order secure a Victory (911, Suicide bombing in night clubs, and busses).

I didn't say that we were. I was saying that the soldier for the other side may be thinking right along the same lines as us. They think they are right, and (think they) are fighting for a just cause. I am sure they feel that they need to protect their families from our forces just like we do.

I can't help but notice that you use "the bad guy’s team" with tongue and cheek. Do you believe that those we fight now are the good guys?

I just think that it's more nuanced, when taking into account the perspective of the enemy soldier, than to say we're the good guys and they're the bad guys. It seems that here we think that anyone we fight must be the bad guys. (I'm sure they feel the same way!). I'll stop saying it. Oh, and for the record, no I don't think that they are the good guys. However, I don't have any particular war in mind in any part of this discussion.

Quote:
I am not sure what to say to this, except for I disagree. I can't see the justice in ever killing innocent people. Let alone a Christian doing it. This is pragmatism, where the ends justify the means. I don't see how God could be glorified by a Christian killing innocent people under any circumstances.

It may seem harsh, and I considered not writing it all together, because I'm sure it makes me sound completely unloving. However, the thought of sacrificing innocent blood for the sake of others is not all that un-Christian.

It is the sacrifice of ones own blood for the sake of others that is Christian. Not the sacrifice of anothers.

Okay Derek. I would be happy to discuss any relevant scripture on this as well.

Cool. I'll get back to you.

God bless bro,

Post by **_Sean** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:31 am

Personally, I think we should be willing to die preaching the Gospel in love to those who are getting ready to kill us. I would tell them that even if they kill me and my loved ones, I don't hold it against them and want them to know that God sent His Son to die for their sins, including killing me. If one day he will repent and call on the Lord for forgiveness and serves Him, he will be forgiven. That will be burned in his mind the rest of his life. That's what Jesus did. He didn't call down angels to fight for Him, nor did He fight for Himself. He did what is weak in man's eyes. Jesus gave His life and left the 11 disciples alone! Yet they were never really alone though, were they? Neither are we.