Resurrection and Judgment

[Guest]

All of the above is about a spiritual ressurection in my opinion (thanks to Todd), however, Jesus goes on to say "Don't mavel at this", meaning something greater is going to happen! Not only these will "live", but people who are in their graves (no mention of graves before), will one day live as well.



Todd, "Do not marvel at THIS" as Derek pointed out is drawing a CONTRAST
between 2 different events which are the spiritual resurrection of believers and the physical resurrection of everyone.
And then in sequential order Christ again contrasts two different judgements one to "life" one to "condemnation."

[Guest]

I also thought of this one on drive to work: Matt. 10:14-15.

14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Obviously, those of the city of Sodom and Gomorrha are dead, and from this verse they will be there at the judgement. That there will be punishment is implied as well here. There are more verses like this, they just aren't coming to mind at the moment.

God bless,

[Guest]

All of the above is about a spiritual ressurection in my opinion (thanks to Todd), however, Jesus goes on to say "Don't mavel at this", meaning something greater is going to happen! Not only these will "live", but people who are in their graves (no mention of graves before), will one day live as well.

Joh 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. ,

Hi Derek, Thanks for your post.

Verses 24 and 25 talk about those who are dead (spiritually dead). The use of the word "grave" in verse 28 is another way to say the same thing IMO - it's a metaphor for those who are spiritually dead. In 24-25 only "some" of the dead hear His word; this is while Jesus walked the earth - a time that "now is". In verses 28-29 all of the dead hear his voice; this is after the Holy Spirit is sent into the world - an hour that is "coming" (when He said it, it was still coming).

To ask us to prove from the scriptures that there is a ressurection and judgement, and then exclude the scriptures that talk about it, is a bit unfair don't you think?

Sorry I broke the rules, but I do not agree with your interpretation of these passages. Ignore my post if you like.

God bless,

You are correct. I'ts probably not fair. But we talked about it anyway. It just seems to me that there should be more scriptural support for something that many beliefs are based on.

Todd

[Guest]

You claim Rev 20 is not chronological but it includes specific events such as DEATH AND HADES being cast into the LOF. Has that happened yet?

NO it has'nt and AFTERWARDS unbelievers are cast into the LOF therefore the LOF is a future event after Christ returns.



Todd, i know i violated your Rev 20 rule but i was hoping you could respond to the sequence of first death and hades cast into the LOF and afterwards unbelievers.

[Guest]

What is the "Day of Judgment" in your opinion Todd?

[Guest]

Todd, i know i violated your Rev 20 rule but i was hoping you could respond to the sequence of first death and hades cast into the LOF and afterwards unbelievers.

Todd, if i understand you correctly you believe our "lake of fire" or judgement day is our life here but as you can see Rev 20 plainly says first death and hades go into the LOF and afterwards the unbeliever enters into the LOF.
Of course according to your rules we have to leave out Rev 20 but that's the part of the bible that informs us about the place that 98% of humanity will most likely end up.

[Guest]

What is the "Day of Judgment" in your opinion Todd?

Hi Derek,

This is a good place to start. I do agree that there is a lot of scriptural evidence for a singular event which is call the "Day of Judgment." This event seems to be yet future. The scripture Homer quoted may be referring to this, although all we can tell from the scripture itself is that there is some kind of judgment after death. I believe this is probably talking about physical death but it could be talking about spiritual death...but I'll assume it's talking about physical death. The verse doesn't tell us when the judgment is to take place, and it mentions nothing about the resurrection so we can't be certain whether it is before or after. There are other verses that also indicate a singular event of Judgment Day, such as....

Acts 17:31
because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.

I am open as to what this is actually referring to, but I think it is highly likely that it takes place before the event that Paul refers to as "the end" when death is destroyed (1 Cor 15:24-26).

But I also believe that the scriptures talk about a different judgment that started at Pentecost and will continue until Christ returns. Think of Solomon. When he sat on his throne the people came before him to be judged. I think it is the same with Christ who took his seat at the right hand of God. Here is my scriptural basis for this.

Matt 16:27-28
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

This first scripture uses language that we usually associate with judgment - "he will reward each according to his works." The next verse says that this event will begin within a generation.

Luke 3:15-17
15 Now as the people were in expectation, and all reasoned in their hearts about John, whether he was the Christ or not, 16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire."

In this scripture John the Baptist talks about the Day of Pentecost saying that Christ will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. Then he describes the execution of judgment. The wheat that is gathered into the barn are those who hear the word and believe and receive life. The chaff that is burned are those who reject Christ. This burning in fire is the punishment we receive in our lifetime when we are overcome in sin (e.g., Romans 1). This is also what I believe is being taught in John Chapter 5 and Revelation Chapter 20. It is not a post resurrection event; it is an ongoing current event. Notice the similar language to Revelation 20: "Baptism of Fire" and "Lake of Fire" - this is the same thing (IMO).

Continuing this thought, it is very important to notice that those in Revelation Chapter 20 who appear in judgment are "dead."

"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,..." Rev 20:12

This is the same as those described as "in the graves" in John 5:28. They are dead - spiritually dead - and they find themselves in a place of punishment (refinement). God is calling them to repentance. This kind of judgment is taking place now.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd, if i understand you correctly you believe our "lake of fire" or judgement day is our life here but as you can see Rev 20 plainly says first death and hades go into the LOF and afterwards the unbeliever enters into the LOF.
Of course according to your rules we have to leave out Rev 20 but that's the part of the bible that informs us about the place that 98% of humanity will most likely end up.

Steve,

My last post explains my view of this. Death and Hades (in Revelation - a book of metaphors) is probably referring to spiritual death.

Todd

[Guest]

Consider this:

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (NKJV)

How can there be a judgement without a resurrection? A resurrection is a necessary inference from v.27. And for the universalist, what salvation is awaiting those who are manifestly not looking for His second coming?

Hi Homer,

I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at with this question. I definitely believe that there is a coming resurrection. But I also believe that all judgment is concluded before that event (i.e., death is destroyed).

Todd

[Guest]

Todd, "Do not marvel at THIS" as Derek pointed out is drawing a CONTRAST between 2 different events which are the spiritual resurrection of believers and the physical resurrection of everyone.
And then in sequential order Christ again contrasts two different judgements one to "life" one to "condemnation."

Steve,

I believe the contrast is referring to the number of hearers. In v24-25 only those who meet Christ face-to-face hear his voice. In v28-29 "all" hear his voice.

Todd