The Biblical Meanings of "Soul"

Post by **_MoGrace2u** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:02 am

Ely,
Looking at the text, it seems only the woman saw Samuel since Saul has to ask her what it was that she saw. If he had appeared in a corporeal form, wouldn't Saul have seen him too? He does hear him speak but apparently is not able to "see" him. This would suggest an appearance like a vision don't you think?

Post by **_Ely** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:23 am

Good point Robin. But the woman saw him "coming up out of the earth." Could Saul not have eventually seen him too? Just thinking out loud here.

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:23 pm

Colossians 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

The verse above seems to say that Jesus was the first person ever to have a true resurrection (raised to immortality).

There were a number of people in the OT who were said to have been raised to life. And there was Lazarus in the NT. I think these were resussitated. They didn't become immortal when they came alive. They died again because of their mortality.

There were 500 who came to life shortly after our Lord's resurrection. They may have had a true resurrection. They may be the "first-fruits" of the resurrection together with our Lord Himself.

I think the SDAs are correct here, in thinking the witch of Endor brought up a demon that was impersonating Samuel. The scripture calls it "Samuel" because that's what it was believed to be.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:19 pm

There is another teaching among Western Christians known as Tripartism or Trichotomy, which says that man is made up of three components: Body, Soul and Spirit. This teaching is very common in Charismatic circles and is based on a misinterpretation of 1 Thess 5:23 and Heb 4:12. Proponents of this view tend to teach that the body and soul are corrupt, while the spirit is dead until brought to life in Christ. It approaches Gnosticism in it's contempt for the material (worldly - body/soul) and exhaltation of the spiritual.

The author of this article who has the soul sleep view claims that believing in an identifiable human spirit comes out of greek philosophy or gnosticism. But it seems to me the author has his pre-supposition and just dismisses some pretty straightforward scripture that identifies the human spirit.
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" Romans 8.16
"The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inner depths of his heart." Proverbs 20.27

If God is Spirit and we are made in His image and likeness how can we not have a spirit in us?

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:17 am

Hi Steve7150,

When you say, "The author of this article...", are you referring to me (since you quoted my post) or Dennis Bratcher (who's article I quoted from in my post)?

When you say, "... who has the soul sleep view...", again I'm not sure who you're referring to: I clearly stated that I don't believe in soul sleep. I don't think Mr. Bratcher does either, though I could be mistaken.

And when you say, "...claims that believing in an identifiable human spirit comes out of greek philosophy or gnosticism", I am again unsure to whom you are referring: I never made any such claim. Did you come across an article by Mr. Bratcher where he did make such a claim? If so, please provide a link - it would be interesting to read.

Since you quoted my statement, I'm going to assume you are rebutting my statement. Please correct me if I'm mistaken in this assumption. But if you carefully re-read the paragraph of mine you quoted you'll see that the topic was Trichotomy, not the existence of an identifiable human spirit. Further, the reference to Gnosticism was in regards to it's similarity with the Tripartite view that the material world is bad and only the spiritual is good.

I'd like to discuss this further with you, but first we need to agree on what exactly we're discussing. Allow me to state again what I stated in my last post, in hopes of clarifying my position:

I’m not arguing that the spirit/soul cannot be separated from the body, but that the Hebrew view of spirit and soul was much less “dichotomized” than our Greek-influenced view. The separation of spirit from body; what we call death; breaks a unity. In that regard, it is not “natural” (by which I mean it is contrary to our nature as created by God). Dichotomy or Trichotomy, on the other hand, sees the division between body and spirit (or body, soul and spirit) as already existing in a living person according to God’s design.

The nuance here has to do not with the existence of a spirit in man, but with the nature of the spirit in relation to man as a whole being. Is man a tripartite creature, made up of three components (body/soul/spirit)? Or is man a bipartite creature made up of two components (body/spirit)? Or is the whole idea of thinking of man as made up of components an Aristotelian construct which we've inherited but which would have been foreign to the ancient Hebrew mind?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:35 am

When you say, "The author of this article...", are you referring to me (since you quoted my post) or Dennis Bratcher (who's article I quoted from in my post)?

When you say, "... who has the soul sleep view...", again I'm not sure who you're referring to: I clearly stated that I don't believe in soul sleep. I don't think Mr. Bratcher does either, though I could be mistaken.

Hi Mort, Sorry i was'nt clear, as i was referring to Dennis Bratcher's article which i thought was disputing the generally accepted christian belief in the trichotomy of man. He seems to refer to the hebraic understandings of man as authorotative but if one believes that the NT revelations trump the OT then Paul's references to "be with the Lord" at his death (Phil 1, 2nd Cor 5) and references to our spirit (1 Thes 5 and Heb 4, Romans 8.15) seem to clearly indentify the human spirit as an entity unto itself apart from the soul and body. It's true that often the human spirit is not independently referred to as separate from the soul , possibly because in those cases it's not needed to separately it to get a meaning across.
When Jesus said to the Saducces that when God spoke to Moses at the burning bush He said He is a God of the living , what was living? Their spirits were living.
However all the references to our spirit being with the Lord at death are for believers so i do believe in soul sleep for unbelievers.

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:16 pm

Hi Steve7150,

"... i was referring to Dennis Bratcher's article which i thought was disputing the generally accepted christian belief in the trichotomy of man."

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Bratcher's article does dispute the trichotomy of man, which is not a generally accepted Christian belief. It is a minority belief. The majority of Christian scholars throughout history have viewed man as a body/spirit dichotomy (which is a heavily Greek influenced view) at best, or, better yet, that man consists of two aspects: a material and a non-material. The non-material aspect is called by many different names; soul, spirit, mind, life force, heart, or any of a dozen or more equivalent scriptural words. These are not separate parts of a person, but are just different words for the different aspects of the non-material aspect of man.

The word dichotomy literally means "cut into two parts" and trichotomy literally means "cut into three parts." Both terms speak of division. When we consider the human body, we talk about various systems; circulatory, digestive, nervous, etc.; but this does not mean that a human is just made up of connected but discrete systems. Likewise, you can differentiate between your finger, hand, wrist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, etc., but that doesn't mean that each of these is a seperate, divided component. Your body is a unified whole. Although various aspects of your body can be named and discussed on their own, it doesn't mean that your finger is divided from your hand or your nervous system is divided from your digestive system.

Regarding Trichotomy, Hank Hanegraaff puts it this way:

The Bible clearly teaches that man is a unified being. However, this unity is divisible into two aspects, material and immaterial. In the Bible these aspects are variously termed, body and soul [e.g., Matt. 10:28], body and mind [e.g., Rom. 12:1-2], body and spirit [e.g., 1 Cor. 7:34; James 2:26], flesh and spirit [e.g., 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 7:1], flesh and heart [e.g., Rom. 2:28-29], and, of course, the outer man and inner man [e.g., 2 Cor. 4:16]. Human beings, though they were created to live in the physical world, are also capable of existing in the spiritual realm as disembodied souls or spirits [e.g., Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9-11].

Now there are a few texts which, because they seem to distinguish between the soul and the spirit, lead Christians to hold that man has three parts — not only the body and soul, but the body, soul, and spirit [1 Thes. 5:18; Heb. 4:12; 1 Cor. 14:14]. Although, this threefold view, or trichotomy (as it’s called), is a possible interpretation of these Scriptures, the weight of evidence, in my opinion, from Scripture is clearly against it. If there is a biblical distinction between the soul and spirit, it is between the natural and supernatural dimensions of the inner, immaterial aspect of our being. In our inner man we can relate both to the world around us and to God. So if there’s truth in the trichotomist viewpoint, I’d say this is probably it. However, let me quickly add that these two dimensions, namely soul and spirit, are inseparable perspectives or functions of our inner man.

Well, what difference does all of this really make in terms of what view we are going to hold? The answer is that it does make a difference because the view that man is merely a material being undermines the biblical truth that we were made in God’s image to know God. The trichotomist view is typically used to support the idea that God communicates mystically with our spirits and thus bypasses our intellects. Remember, the heart can not fully rejoice in what the mind does not comprehend, and this false teaching leads people to swallow other false and destructive heresies as well. The teaching that man is two parts or unified dichotomy of body and soul, I think, avoids these errors and is most faithful to Scripture.

Hanegraaff touches on an important point here, which is the link between Trichotomy and anti-intellectualism. According to Trichotomists, the mind/intellect/emotions are part of the soul and the soul can sin. This means, according to Trichotomists, that only the spirit is good. It then follows that intellectual pursuits are "soulish" and to be shunned. Once again, we have veered into gnosticism.

As I recall, Grudem has an excellent treatment on Trichotomy in his Systematic Theology: http://www.amazon.com/Systematic-Theolo ... 0310286700

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:38 pm

Well, what difference does all of this really make in terms of what view we are going to hold? The answer is that it does make a difference because the view that man is merely a material being undermines the biblical truth that we were made in God’s image to know God. The trichotomist view is typically used to support the idea that God communicates mystically with our spirits and thus bypasses our intellects. Remember, the heart can not fully rejoice in what the mind does not comprehend, and this false teaching leads people to swallow other false and destructive heresies as well. The teaching that man is two parts or unified dichotomy of body and soul, I think, avoids these errors and is most faithful to Scripture.

Hi Mort, Thanks for posting Hanegraaff's article in which he seems to leap to some far fetched conclusions. Where is it said the trichotomist view believes that God mystically communicates with us and bypasses our intellect? Romans 8.16 clearly says that the Holy Spirit WITNESSES to our spirit, is this mystical? How about Hebrews 12.23 "to the spirits of just men made perfect." How many times does the term "the spirit of man" have to be mentioned for it to be acknowledged as an identifiable entity? Jesus said "Father into your hands I commend MY SPIRIT" meaning his spirit not the breath of life from the Father but HIS spirit or how about Stephen , when speaking to Jesus "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

I've heard derogatory desriptions used toward trichotomy like it's gnostic or it leads to heresies since it bypasses the intellect or it's Calvinistic , but acknowleging the human spirit does not lead to giving up your intellect ,it simply means we do have something above and beyond that.

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:34 pm

We seem to be dealing with apples and oranges here. Is the issue the existence of the spirit or is the issue Trichotomy? The scriptures you referenced relate to the existence of the spirit but don't really address Trichotomy.

Perhaps it would help me if you defined what you understand the difference to be between the soul and the spirit.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:28 pm

We seem to be dealing with apples and oranges here. Is the issue the existence of the spirit or is the issue Trichotomy? The scriptures you referenced relate to the existence of the spirit but don't really address Trichotomy.

Perhaps it would help me if you defined what you understand the difference to be between the soul and the spirit.

As far as i know, the only verses that identify all three (soul,spirit and body) in the same verse are 1 Thes 5.13 and Hebrews 4.12. We know body and soul are mentioned numerous times in scripture therefore it would seem to me the more times we can find the human spirit described by itself the more weight it would give the trichotomy view. My understanding is that the soul means the mind and the emotions of a person and the spirit means the things of the heart. I know things of the heart sounds like emotions but it's deeper then emotions and it let's us connect with "agape love." I know it may sound mystical but that's because it's hard to describe , it's something like an inner man. When the Holy Spirit indwells us i don't think He is indwelling in our emotions although He definetely influences our minds but i think He indwells with our inner man.

i.e. "the spirit of man is the candle of the Lord" Proverbs 20.27 and here "But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2.14
It seems to me "natural man" includes mind and emotions.