The Law written on our hearts

[Guest]

I just found an interesting article on this subject, written by Charles Finney over 150 years ago. He expounds on Acts 17:30 and makes it his argument against the practice of slavery.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/1852OE/52081 ... orance.htm

[Guest]

They don't have the Law of Moses, but they do have the Law written on their hearts. Look again at verses 14 and 15.

I agree, that's not were the issue is. The issue is weather or not the law written on the heart is all Gentiles or believing Gentiles. Not if it's the law of Moses or not. I think you get to this here:

But this still doesn't answer your point. Is it just the Christian Gentiles that have the law written on their heart or ALL Gentiles? You seem to suggest that only Christians obey the Law of God therefore only Christians have it written on their heart. I disagree. First of all, Christians don't always obey it, and, Non-Christians sometimes do obey it.

I disagree with the conclusion you are drawing from this vauge statement.
Or, to put it another way, there are many scriptures that state that a Christian obeys Christ. A non-Christian does not. So what about the Christian thar sins? He will repent, while a non-Christian does not (Paul mentioned two kinds of repentance, Godly and worldly). Christians who sin without repentance prove they are not Christians. So I think it's invalid to point out that Christians sin, since although they do they don't like it, repent of it and are forgiven. And while the ungodly does do good sometimes, well Jesus mentioned how the "world" loves it's own and seeks after it's own desires and praise. Some of these things are good, even though the motivation may not be pure.

Actually, this the point I think Paul was making - that these Gentiles (who obey the law written on their hearts) had no knowledge of the Law of Moses. Christians, on the other hand, are taught the Law of Christ, which is the heart of the Law of Moses, which is to love your neighbor as yourself. Therefore, I think it is entirely possible that Paul was referring to Gentiles who were not Christian.

But that's my point as well. If Paul was referring to non-Christian Gentiles who specifically can stand up and condemn a Jew would have to be a "righteous" Gentile. This certainly can't be a non-believer.

Rom 2:27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

In context Paul is saying that the Gentile who has the law written on his heart shows it, even to the point of "condemning" a Jew who is a "lawbreaker". Again, I don't see how this can apply to a non-saved Gentile. It goes on in verse 29 to point out the circumcision by the spirit. Something that does not happen to all men:

Rom 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

I do see this as a separate event from conversion. When the Holy Spirit was given on the Day of Pentecost all of humanity was given the "knowledge of the Lord," as it is written in Jeremiah that no one would have to teach his neighbor or his brother saying, "know the Lord" for all shall know him.

Then why does Paul mention those who do not have the Spirit in Romans 8 I quoted above?

Now this brings us to the next point. How does this call to repentance work? Remember when John the Baptist said that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with Fire (Luke 3:16). With the Holy Spirit came the "knowledge of the Lord" to the world, and the Fire is the conviction (or punishment) that is suffered when we don't obey it; hence, a call to repentance. This is what I believe is meant when we are told that we will be rewarded according to our works. Those who obey the law written on our hearts will be spiritually rewarded, while those who do not obey will be spiritually convicted or punished (as a call to repentance).

On the otherhand, those who are "converted" have made a commitment to Christ and his law and understand the blessings that come through discipleship. These have a special relationship with the Holy Spirit through prayer and submitting to the Lordship of Christ.

Todd

I ran out of time, I'll have to comment later.

Note: While Jesus mentions the Spirit coming to convict the world of sin, it's interesting that those who brought to Jesus the woman taken in adultry were "convicted" when Jesus said "Whoever is without sin may cast the first stone". How were they convicted if the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus said would convict the world of sin, was not yet poured out?

[Guest]

Duplicate post.

[Guest]

Note: While Jesus mentions the Spirit coming to convict the world of sin, it's interesting that those who brought to Jesus the woman taken in adultry were "convicted" when Jesus said "Whoever is without sin may cast the first stone". How were they convicted if the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus said would convict the world of sin, was not yet poured out?

I will comment on the rest later but I wanted to quickly answer this question. In this particular case these men were convicted directly by the words of the Lord Himself....."Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

Todd

[Guest]

Todd wrote:

This is how the Holy Spirit can convict the world of sin (John 16:8 ) because everyone knows what he ought to do.

are you stating that before the day of pentecost, people did not have a conscience?

perhaps if you can define what you see as the difference between "having the law of God written on your hearts" and what we call a "conscience," i will better understand your position.

thx!! TK

[Guest]

Todd wrote:

This is how the Holy Spirit can convict the world of sin (John 16:8 ) because everyone knows what he ought to do.

are you stating that before the day of pentecost, people did not have a conscience?

perhaps if you can define what you see as the difference between "having the law of God written on your hearts" and what we call a "conscience," i will better understand your position.

thx!! TK

TK,

Thank you for asking this question as I believe it will clarify what I believe the scriptures teach on this subject.

Man has always had a conscience since creation. The function of the conscience is to compare our thoughts and actions to what our heart believes is right. Our conscience then "accuses, or else defends" us accordingly.....as Paul said in Rom 2:15. Now here's the difference. Before the Day of Pentecost, what people "believed was right" was solely dependent on the society in which they lived or their family or their religion. The vast majority of mankind was ignorant of what was truely right according to God. The Jews had some idea through the Law of Moses but even they were more caught up in the letter of the Law rather than the Spirit of it. The only way someone could find out what was truely right was by being taught person-to-person of the Law of Moses. Jeremiah prophesied of a new way in Jer 31:33-34.

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

So God sent His Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost and "imprinted" the Law of God into the heart of everyone. Now deep in each person's heart he knows what is truely right according to our Lord and his conscience will accuse or defend him accordingly. Now the correct moral standard is universal in each person's heart.

But, of course, many people do not obey their conscience. This is true. And I believe their soul suffers for it. This is what the Bible teaches.

Col 3:25
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

The Christian, through prayer, meditation and study will align (or yield) his thoughts and actions to the will of God through obedience to his conscience which is guided by the Spirit or the implanted word.

James 1:21
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

So, has everyone received this enlightenment? I believe so.

John 1:9
The true light [Christ] that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Todd

[Guest]

todd quoted:

John 1:9
The true light [Christ] that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

i am glad you quoted this verse. i think that the context of this verse makes it clear that the light was "there for the taking." in other words, the light shone, but many hid from the light.

9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In I John he states that some men choose to walk in darkness.

I am also not sure of the distinction between doing what one THINKS is right vs doing what is TRULY right. in civilized societies, it seems there would not be much difference. in other words, stealing would be viewed as wrong, murdering, lying etc. other actions such as cowardice or treachery would also seem to be frowned upon. of course, almost everyone (with few exceptions) knows perfectly well what is right, but some simply choose to do otherwise. if you are saying that as soon as pentecost happened, every human on earth suddenly had their consciences "tweaked" up a notch compared to 5 minutes before pentecost, then this seems to be a very difficult claim to prove, from a practical standpoint.

perhaps the presence of spirit-filled christians began causing conviction of sin (e.g. peter's early sermons) but this is different that saying all of a sudden people had a sense of what God actually required (w/o being told).

assuming you are correct though, that all flesh had the law of god written on their hearts at pentecost, what good does this do them, if salvation is a separate event (as you stated earlier)?

TK

[Guest]

Ok, I'm still trying to understand. I think I'm getting there with your last post.

The problem I am having with understanding is this: If you are saying that Jeremiah 31 is present in all men that's one thing. But to use John 1:9 is were I get confused since John also says that there are people who hate the light and will not come to it. The language used seems to clearly divide all people into 2 groups. Those who have come to the light and those who have run from it. Further, believers (a specific group) are called to be "light" in a "dark" world. Or as Jesus said "you are the light of the world".

I see this as parallel to "living water".

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 7:38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

In John 4 it's believers who have living water springing up within them to eternal life. John 7 it says living waters flow out from believers.

Just as there are some who are "light givers" there are some who are "water givers". I see this a different metaphors for the same idea.

Since I see these passages this way, I have a hard time concluding that light has come to all men. Because that would mean all are the light of the world and all have eternal life. Yet Jesus said the apostles were the light and specifically mentioned others being in darkness. Jesus also mentions the condition of belief assosiated with people who recieve living water, springing up to eternal life, not all men.

I tend to see man as needing enlightenment. That comes by "light bearers" in combination with the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, why have those who bring "light" to the world if we all have it already?

[Guest]

The language used seems to clearly divide all people into 2 groups. Those who have come to the light and those who have run from it.

Sean,

Okay, I think we are getting close on this part. I do say there are two groups. The first group are those who seek earnestly to follow the truth implanted within them. These "receive the implanted word" and their life exhibits the love of Christ. The other group hardens their heart and does not obey - and due to their disobedience suffer God's wrath.

This is very important to what I am try to explain. Remember that I pointed out that before the Day Pentecost God "overlooked" the ignorance of mankind, but when the Holy Spirit was poured out to write His Law on our hearts, He also baptized the world with Fire. He no longer overlooks our disobedience. Read what John the Baptist said just before he told about the Baptism of Spirit and Fire.

Matt 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

God doesn't overlook disobedience anymore. His wrath is poured out upon the disobedient. While, at the same time, His spiritual blessings are poured out upon those who seek after Him.

And what form does this wrath take? I suppose most would say that God is withholding the execution of His wrath until after the second coming of Christ. But I say, "not so!" God is calling everyone to repent. He is pouring out His wrath right now on the souls of the disobedient as a call to repentance, so they can turn their life around - to root out the turmoil and strife, anxiety and guilt - so that they can receive God's blessings of love, joy, peace and rest before they die.

It is not always apparent what is going on inside the soul of one who is being convicted (or punished) by the Lord. We may look at someone who is sinning and say, "he looks like he is doing well." But inside his heart and soul is a battleground.

God is not a respecter of persons - everyone who sins will be convicted (even Christians).....and, by the same token, everyone who does good will be rewarded.

Rom 2:9-11
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,
I think I'm understanding you now, I just don't see how it must logically follow that since God overlooked times of ignorance that that means now everyone recieves the law written on thier hearts. In other words, it could just be about those who actually repent and recieve the Holy Spirit and enter into a covenant relationship with God by faith. It it these that recieve the law written on their hearts. Not that you are necessarily wrong, I just equate the "law written on the heart" with the Holy Spirit that is given with respect to the new covenant. Somthing that seems to be optional to the individual. I'll have to think about it some more to see if I'm associating the "law written on the heart" with the Holy Spirit correctly.

I will point out again though that it was the Holy Spirit that was poured out at Pentacost. Peter quoted the OT and said this is what was predicted, the Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. Yet we know from other letters like Romans 8 that not all have the Spirit of God. So I'm still having a hard time connecting Acts 2 with an event that has (as you say) taken place in all people, when Paul says this event has not happened in all people until they believe. So while it still maybe possible that something has changed in all people, even an event where the law is written on their hearts, I don't think Acts 2 says this, actually it seems to say otherwise.

I do agree that God's wrath is being poured out now in people's lives. I think that's what Paul is saying in Romans 1.