Is a “sin nature” biblical?

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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:50 pm

Cristopher said:
Now we do know that at least some of these men (especially Lot and probably Noah) were not righteous in the sense that they never sinned. However, the tension between the idea that “there is none righteous, no not one” and that certain men are expressly said to be righteous does underscore the fact that the hyperbole is used in the bible when speaking of righteousness.
10 As it is written:


“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”


I do not believe this is hyperbole in the context of the previous verses which say:

1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?

In one sense the righteousness of men declared by God was that of faith possessed by those men. Abraham certainly went a long way to show his sinful behaviour but yet God called him a man of righteousness. David, likewise failed in many ways but God called him a man after His own heart. Each practiced faith in God balanced with obiedience to what God required from them. In the eyes of God this was declared righteousness. Today we know that Jesus Christ is the principal element in being seen by God as righteous. God no longer sees us on our own but sees us as through His Son. The same was true for the OT Believers but it was still a mystery at that time but true none the less.
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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:36 pm

Allyn, et al,
10 As it is written:


“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
The verbs "understands" and "does" (good) are present participles in the Greek which refers to continuous or repeated action. Obviously many people, even unbelievers, do many good things, so I would not understand the passage in a literal sense. I think the meaning, in context of all Paul has said to this point, is all people are sinners in need of a Savior. I see Romans as written primarily about people groups, i.e. Jews and gentiles; both stand condemned.

TK said:
you brought up again the idea that Jesus had no special advantage over us that assisted him in his sinlessness, other than he was able to control his temptations through willpower and obedience to conscience. I may be able to accept this idea, but nobody has provided me with an answer as to HOW he was able to do it. we know He did it, but how?
It is my belief that Jesus had perfect faith, faith that allowed Him to live a sinless life and do all the wonderful things He did, and to always do things for the right reason. If Jesus had some special, natural advantage we do not have, He would have had a "crutch", would He not? And if He did not live by faith at all, but "by sight", how could he serve as an example for us?

More importantly, how would we live if our faith(fulness) was absolutely perfect?
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Post by _Anonymous » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:28 pm

Homer wrote: It is my belief that Jesus had perfect faith, faith that allowed Him to live a sinless life and do all the wonderful things He did, and to always do things for the right reason. If Jesus had some special, natural advantage we do not have, He would have had a "crutch", would He not? And if He did not live by faith at all, but "by sight", how could he serve as an example for us?

More importantly, how would we live if our faith(fulness) was absolutely perfect?
Homer, I really agree with you here. I was thinking along the same lines; that Jesus seemed to depend totally on the Spirit. I know in my life the only way to overcome temptation is to ask for the Spririt's help, I'm pretty pathetic left to my own devices.

Do you think that a Christian, walking in the Spirit constantly, living in perfect faith(fulness), could be sinless?
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:28 pm

It is my belief that Jesus had perfect faith, faith that allowed Him to live a sinless life and do all the wonderful things He did, and to always do things for the right reason. If Jesus had some special, natural advantage we do not have, He would have had a "crutch", would He not? And if He did not live by faith at all, but "by sight", how could he serve as an example for us?

Good post Homer, The description of Jesus and John as children sound similar
"And the child(John) grew, and waxed strong in spirit,and was in the deserts till the day of his showing unto Israel." Luke 1.80
"And the child (Jesus) grew and waxed strong in spirit,filled with wisdom,and the grace of God was upon him." Luke 2.40

And Jesus at age 12 was in the temple "And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers" Luke 2.47
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Post by _Homer » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:32 pm

Michelle,

You asked:
Do you think that a Christian, walking in the Spirit constantly, living in perfect faith(fulness), could be sinless?
Theoretically yes but practically no, if that makes sense. If we eliminated all conscious sin, there would still be sins of ignorance.

And you said:
I know in my life the only way to overcome temptation is to ask for the Spirit's help, I'm pretty pathetic left to my on devices.
Me too. :(
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Post by _Anonymous » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:37 pm

Homer wrote:Theoretically yes but practically no, if that makes sense.
That makes perfect sense...that's what I was thinking, too. (Of course, I always make perfect sense to myself.)
If we eliminated all conscious sin, there would still be sins of ignorance.
Maybe as we grew there would be less and less ignorance as well.
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Post by _Paidion » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:49 pm

Homer, I really agree with you here. I was thinking along the same lines; that Jesus seemed to depend totally on the Spirit. I know in my life the only way to overcome temptation is to ask for the Spririt's help, I'm pretty pathetic left to my own devices.

Do you think that a Christian, walking in the Spirit constantly, living in perfect faith(fulness), could be sinless?
Since Jesus was perfectly sinless, and since He is the pioneer of our salvation and of our faith, then the sinlessness of His disciples seems to be a possibility (Heb 2:10, 12:2 RSV)

Salvation is a process whose goal appears to be perfection. It seems that Paul taught that Christ's disciples will receive the finishing touches of righteousness at the coming of Christ:

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Ephesians 4:11-13 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:10-14 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
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Post by _TK » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:56 pm

i think it is possible to ALMOST sinless, but not entirely. the reason is that our thoughts are often quicker than our will--

the easiest example, from a male's standpoint, is how we react to things that we see. a sinful thought can enter our head so fast that we've sinned almost before we realize it. if we are walking in the Spirit we can turn it off very quickly, or we will avert our eyes more quickly than if we were not. hopefully, if we are walking in the Spirit, we wont allow what we see turn into a sinful thought so quickly. succeeding EVERY TIME, however, is what would seem to be exceedingly difficult. that is what amazes me about jesus- not that he avoided the BIG sins but the quick sneaky little ones that no one else would even know about.

TK
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Post by _Allyn » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:04 pm

Sinlessness is the absense of sin. At what point have removed sin from our lives? Through the redemptive act of Christ we have been found righteous but never have we been found sinless. Though our sins be as scarlet they shall be as white as snow. Is. 1:18

A sin once scarlet and now a sin as snow is still a sin but seen differently in the Eye of God but only as through Christ.
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Post by _Anonymous » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:08 pm

Allyn wrote:Sinlessness is the absense of sin. At what point have removed sin from our lives? Through the redemptive act of Christ we have been found righteous but never have we been found sinless. Though our sins be as scarlet they shall be as white as snow. Is. 1:18

A sin once scarlet and now a sin as snow is still a sin but seen differently in the Eye of God but only as through Christ.
Well, yeah. Don't you find yourself sinning less and less, however? Maybe not sinless, but getting closer to the mark?
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