Are denominations *always" wrong?

[Guest]

Hello friends,

I just had fellowship at my mother's church. Tasted a lot like spaghetti. We brought a take-out plate to my wife. Does that qualify as evangelism?

You all had very good responses and I appreciate the fact that we can also have a light-hearted discussion alongside those that sometimes get heated.

Homer's idea well-stated the Biblical example of fellowship and I can not add anything to his fine examples. But, Christopher and the rest of you have a viewpoint that we can't neglect. In the current era, we do often find the word fellowship used that way and, if we begin to hold ourselves up to other Christians as witnesses for Christ with some kind of learned position, then we're going to have to show them what the passages really mean. We have to respectfully teach the difference between the two meanings of fellowship.

As a parallel, we have often argued about the true meaning of church. We know that scripture advocates the ekklesia or body of believers. But others have learned that the word means a building or just the group that you meet with on Sunday morning, evening or Wednesday night, for instance. While the scriptural example should take precedence, we must be meek in explaining the difference to other disciples who may not have been exposed to that teaching. We must look for a way to serve God in educating his flock.

I ran into this situation once--Attended a men's group Bible study. We had apple juice and cookies. We got into the lesson and about halfway through the leader and another older man( both good fellows) somehow got on the subject of running bulldozers. One explained how to run a D8 on a coal pile and the other how to do it in the woods. We ran them on hills, we sunk into the coal pile, we greased the dozer, we threw a track off. Then we began to learn where the best timber grew in this area. By this time, my cookies had worn off and I seriously needed a Mountain Dew. I went TO STUDY THE BIBLE! But I was fellowshipping, yes sir, bored to tears, and finally so disgusted that I think I excused myself to "go help my wife". That always works for me. She can vouch for me. By the time I got home, The Holy Spirit had already shirtcollared me and taken me to the woodshed--twice! I'm always so impressed with you guys that the Holy Spirit speaks to. He collars me weekly and we go to the woodshed and I go out into the world again. Now which fellowship was that--the one Homer described or the one with only food and drinks?

And as for you, Brody. You really didn't say anything wrong so chill my friend. But look what you said in the post I referenced earlier and in the 5:23pm post of that same day 5/17. If I read correctly, you essentially described the same situation I just described. You have to do your studying at home but can go to the "church" for fellowship. And if you start to actually bring up Biblical subjects that the group doesn't understand then you get "the look". We've come a long way from going to the synagogue for instruction.

Brody: "I've been reading a great book about 4 views of Revelation."

Madge: "Who is that?"

Peggy: "Oh, that's just Brody. He studies a lot."

Madge: "Oh. Did you plug the coffeepot in?"


Have a great weekend!

livingink

[Guest]

Ohh... I see.

One thing though, most of us here(you included)find scripture to be so awe-inspiring, and we want nothing more than to "figure it all out". So ofcourse we get bored at most meetings because we have "heard it all". Now, I am not sugesting that we claim to be smarter than everyone. Lord knows I aint. But we love to hear people like Steve talk about subjects that are not clear in scripture but require digging. Alot of folks that I know "are" content with milk-type lessons. "Jesus loves me" type stuff. You know what I mean. Where the Pastor reads one verse out-of-context and talks an hour or so about something that has no relevance to the subject...

And another thing I find funny is preachers that preach Salvation messages every sunday to the congregation...Arent the "members" supposed to be saved in the first place????

[Guest]

livingink,

You said:

I ran into this situation once--Attended a men's group Bible study. We had apple juice and cookies. We got into the lesson and about halfway through the leader and another older man( both good fellows) somehow got on the subject of running bulldozers. One explained how to run a D8 on a coal pile and the other how to do it in the woods. We ran them on hills, we sunk into the coal pile, we greased the dozer, we threw a track off. Then we began to learn where the best timber grew in this area. By this time, my cookies had worn off and I seriously needed a Mountain Dew.

Seems like I went to "men's breakfast" a time or two with those guys! Small world!

Blessings, Homer

[Guest]

I love food. It makes me happy.

Did'nt Jesus say something like "I have food you don't know about"

Maybe we're beginning to know about that food.

[Guest]

Hi livingink,

I'm sorry about your bible study experience, but maybe the Lord really wanted you to know about tractors. Or maybe He wanted you to know humility and self-sacrifice. The question that comes to my mind is: Do you think those two gentlemen would have started the bible study promptly if they had known the true meaning of the word fellowship?

I don't disagree with Your's and Homers observation of the definition of fellowship. I guess I really don't see why it's so important that we don't use the word the way Christians tend to use it today. What could be improved upon by insisting upon using the word the way the bible does? Do you think the definition I gave (Acts 2:44-47) hinders the advancement of the gospel in some way? I see the Lord adding to their number daily in that passage.

By the way, in the Strongs....


NT:2842
koinonia (koy-nohn-ee'-ah); from NT:2844; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction:

KJV - (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-) distribution, fellowship.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


I think we can have a little liberty on this one IMO.


Also You wrote:

As a parallel, we have often argued about the true meaning of church. We know that scripture advocates the ekklesia or body of believers.

How do you usually say "I'm going to church"? Just curious.

[Guest]

And another thing I find funny is preachers that preach Salvation messages every sunday to the congregation...Arent the "members" supposed to be saved in the first place????

Maybe they forgot. Don't you know, you don't grow by "growing" you grow the church by adding members/baptizms, etc.

When I read through this thread, I don't know know weather to feel comforted that my church isn't the only one like what is being described or to feel sorrowful for such a state.

Problem is, I feel both. It makes me wonder sometimes why I know anything other than "abba father". When I see such indifference in my "church" to actually reading the word of God and/or talking about it. Sometimes it's almost appealing to think that blindness seems to be bliss.

It's almost a pre-requisite to modern fellowship to not talk too much about the word of God or, God forbid, apply what it says to your life. Don't want to offend anyone with the truth now.

[Guest]

And another thing I find funny is preachers that preach Salvation messages every sunday to the congregation...Arent the "members" supposed to be saved in the first place????

Maybe they forgot. Don't you know, you don't grow by "growing" you grow the church by adding members/baptizms, etc.

When I read through this thread, I don't know know weather to feel comforted that my church isn't the only one like what is being described or to feel sorrowful for such a state.

Problem is, I feel both. It makes me wonder sometimes why I know anything other than "abba father". When I see such indifference in my "church" to actually reading the word of God and/or talking about it. Sometimes it's almost appealing to think that blindness seems to be bliss.

It's almost a pre-requisite to modern fellowship to not talk too much about the word of God or, God forbid, apply what it says to your life. Don't want to offend anyone with the truth now.

I agree 100%.

If you dont mind me asking, what church do you attend? It is so sad, I almost feel ....scared.... sometimes to bring up certian bible topics at my church. For fear of how certain people will react.

[Guest]

Maybe I'm trying to say that I don't see the difference in meeting at the bowling alley on Friday night for pizza and a few frames or in a church building for pizza and conversation if the talk never includes talking about the Bible. As I understand what Homer quoted, Jesus needs to be the center around which we all revolve. That may actually include Christopher's idea--in fact, I think the passage in Acts is the ideal. So, I'm not disagreeing on that but saying that there never seems to be enough meat and potatoes to go along with the pizza.

Since I haven't been to an organized church service in about 6 months I have a hard time answering your question. Several things went haywire at once. What I have found to be much easier is talking to people about Bible subjects here at my business. People ask. So, if you are truly studying then your church is wherever you are. When people ask, I tell them my wife and I study here together. As many of you can attest, you are being exposed to things on this forum and on Steve's tapes that you will not be exposed to in several years in a mainline church if you ever are exposed to them there. 6 months ago I could not have discussed the true meaning of church with you--but I can now and may even begin a home study for others on the subject.

I taught adult Sunday school for 3-4 years. What I found was that people who had been attending for 50-60 YEARS felt that I was teaching them something entirely new by simply showing them the full meaning of English words like hope, love and faith by using the Strong's to point out the Greek and Hebrew meaning. They were excited and began to participate. I believe this is what the writer of Hebrews was talking about when he talked of going on to the more difficult subjects and getting off the milk. Take Brody's point, for example. On the one hand, continuing to preach salvation to the congregation is a poor use of time if both speaker and congregation understand it to mean that you've done enough to avoid going to Hell. But, is it a poor use of time if you have a group of unlearned disciples who do not know that salvation is a multi-step process including justification, sanctification, regeneration, etc. Can the speaker take the time, even if a series of weeks, to explain those concepts to the group? Does the speaker himself understand it?

Maybe I'm letting my personal experience color my outlook right now. But, as I heard Vernon McGee say once, "It's time to get off the pablum". I don't feel that I'm serving God by sitting through another hour of bottle feeding when God has given me the knowledge and opportunity to speak to someone about Him. And I'm afraid we're in danger of hijacking the original intention of this thread so I'll shut up.

regards,

livingink

[Guest]

Maybe I'm trying to say that I don't see the difference in meeting at the bowling alley on Friday night for pizza and a few frames or in a church building for pizza and conversation if the talk never includes talking about the Bible. As I understand what Homer quoted, Jesus needs to be the center around which we all revolve. That may actually include Christopher's idea--in fact, I think the passage in Acts is the ideal. So, I'm not disagreeing on that but saying that there never seems to be enough meat and potatoes to go along with the pizza.

Since I haven't been to an organized church service in about 6 months I have a hard time answering your question. Several things went haywire at once. What I have found to be much easier is talking to people about Bible subjects here at my business. People ask. So, if you are truly studying then your church is wherever you are. When people ask, I tell them my wife and I study here together. As many of you can attest, you are being exposed to things on this forum and on Steve's tapes that you will not be exposed to in several years in a mainline church if you ever are exposed to them there. 6 months ago I could not have discussed the true meaning of church with you--but I can now and may even begin a home study for others on the subject.

I taught adult Sunday school for 3-4 years. What I found was that people who had been attending for 50-60 YEARS felt that I was teaching them something entirely new by simply showing them the full meaning of English words like hope, love and faith by using the Strong's to point out the Greek and Hebrew meaning. They were excited and began to participate. I believe this is what the writer of Hebrews was talking about when he talked of going on to the more difficult subjects and getting off the milk. Take Brody's point, for example. On the one hand, continuing to preach salvation to the congregation is a poor use of time if both speaker and congregation understand it to mean that you've done enough to avoid going to Hell. But, is it a poor use of time if you have a group of unlearned disciples who do not know that salvation is a multi-step process including justification, sanctification, regeneration, etc. Can the speaker take the time, even if a series of weeks, to explain those concepts to the group? Does the speaker himself understand it?

Maybe I'm letting my personal experience color my outlook right now. But, as I heard Vernon McGee say once, "It's time to get off the pablum". I don't feel that I'm serving God by sitting through another hour of bottle feeding when God has given me the knowledge and opportunity to speak to someone about Him. And I'm afraid we're in danger of hijacking the original intention of this thread so I'll shut up.

regards,

livingink

Please don't shut up. You hit the nail on the head. I dont think most church goers realize the severity of the situation at hand. Most of the "salvation" messages that are preached have nothing to do with becoming a disciple. It is usually a "walk to the front" or "raise your hand" deal. Which reminds me of something else that just kills me, have any of you ever been to a service where the preacher says "All eyes closed, all heads bowed" "Just raise your hands if you want to get saved"? What, does the person want to become a secret Christian? Can you imagine Paul doing this? Whatever happened to "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father"? Strange.

[Guest]

If you dont mind me asking, what church do you attend? It is so sad, I almost feel ....scared.... sometimes to bring up certian bible topics at my church. For fear of how certain people will react.

I go to a non-denominational church. They are pretty good overall. They don't have any pre drawn up doctrines in writing that they impose on new members. But even so, it doesn't take long before the pet-peeve doctrines come out in sermons and are imposed on the people as if it's the Bible. And then the Bible itself is not taught.