1 Cor 13 and the gifts of the Spirit.

[Guest]

I'm reminded of the bumper sticker that says "I'm not perfect, just forgiven". I don't have a lot of hope that I'll get to "perfect" in this life (for we all stumble in many ways) but there is enormous room for improvement between "just forgiven" and "perfect"!

[Guest]

I agree Homer. I don't expect to be perfect in this life either as far as never stumbling. But is it possible that the church can become "perfectly" loving and unified in the sense that we stop dividing over stuff and work together toward the great commission?

I think the "perfect man" in the Ephesians verse is referring to the Body of Christ that "we all come" to. He is the man. The head is perfect, but the body needs some work still.

I'm going to take this verse as a prediction, until someone bursts my bubble and convinces me otherwise.

[_Les Wright]

Hi Homer et al,

I tend to agree that the passage implies that faith, hope and love will remain after that which is perfect comes, which I take to be our personal glorifcation at (or subsequent) the return of Christ.

Defined this way, it isn't referring to the Canon and an argument for the ceasing of the gifts.

I'm not sure why hope would remain. Good question. What about faith, why would we need that unless of course we can be unfaithful in the new heavens and earth after Christ's return? The difficulty of answering this (to me at least) makes me wonder if Michelle is correct? Esp when 14:1 says pursue love (i.e. today).

->Added. Perhaps Paul isn't referring to people possessing love, hope and faith, but the quality itself. They're of God and will be with us when we're glorified. Just an idea?

I always wondered why love was said to be the greatest, and my guess is that faith and hope are personal qualities that the beliver possesses, but that don't really impact other believers or non-Believers to the same extent as love. The purpose of the gifts is for the exhortation of believers (and some are evangelsitic), so as a result Paul can say that love is the greatest as it results in the most exhortation.

To put it another way, the more excellent way (12:31) is love motivating Christians to build up the church/other believers as shown in 14:1-5.

On another note, I believe Steve has said that love is the greatest because according to 13:7 it actually incorporates faith/faithfulness and hope. If so, then my explanation doesn't stand.

Ah well..

Any alternative other than the one about the gifts ceasing is probably a better explanation.

Les

[Guest]

Greetings All,

13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

The prophecies, tongues and knowledge refer to miraculous gifts.

13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

This time of “knowing and prophesying in part” existed in the apostolic or infancy age of the church, the foundational age (Eph. 2:20)

13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The “that which is perfect” refers to the complete revelation of God’s word. If this is the case, there would no longer be a need for further revelation regarding God’s will for man.

13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

When the complete (God’s final will for mankind) comes those things which are associated with the incomplete (the need for miraculous prophecy, tongues and knowledge) are done away with.

With this in mind verse 12

13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Could be understood by what James wrote:

1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Faith, hope and love would abide before and after “the complete”. Anywho, just some thoughts ….. Peace in Him

[_Les Wright]

Doulos,

"13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The “that which is perfect” refers to the complete revelation of God’s word. If this is the case, there would no longer be a need for further revelation regarding God’s will for man."

Besides your opinion and that of others that believe the gifts have ceased, can you provide a exegetical reason why 'that which is perfect' refers to the complete revelation of God's word?

If I do study on the word perfect/complete used elsewhere in scripture, it nowhere refers to this concept. Why then, would you think it does here?

Tx
Les

[Guest]

Homer - thanks for the reply to my question. I was really just asking, not trying to make a point. I was raised to believe that the gifts were done away with, but now I'm not so sure...

[Guest]

Christopher:

I don't expect to be perfect in this life either as far as never stumbling.

Christopher, I'm glad you added the phrase "as far as never stumbling".
Many people in our day use the word "perfect" as if it meant "flawless".

I don't mind repeating the fact that "perfect" as used in the New Testament meant "complete".

Jesus was flawless. But He had to be made perfect through suffering.

[Guest]

Besides your opinion and that of others that believe the gifts have ceased, can you provide a exegetical reason why 'that which is perfect' refers to the complete revelation of God's word?

If I do study on the word perfect/complete used elsewhere in scripture, it nowhere refers to this concept. Why then, would you think it does here?

Les, these are excellent questions and I appreciate you asking them.

Before I attempt to explain my view, I wish to express my deepest respect for those who hold differing opinions. In no way do I wish to come across as judgmental or condemning of anyone’s belief. If ever something I type appears that way, it is not my intent.

To state the obvious, this is my current view. I understand that the possibility of it being right is no greater than the possibility of it being wrong. I reserve the right to change my opinion should I ever be persuaded to do so. With that being said;

When we use the term “perfect or complete” it is imperative to understand in what sense it is being applied. The written word makes certain claims about itself. (I hope my use of the pronoun “It” when speaking of the word does not offend anyone.)

It claims to be the complete / perfect law of liberty Ja 1:21-25. So the concept of God’s word being perfect or complete is from the scriptures.

It claims to have the ability to completely equip the child of God for every good work 2Ti 3:16,17

It claims to have the ability to instruct as if an apostle were present. 1Ti 3:14,15
(Paul wrote to Timothy so he would know how to behave in the church. Paul’s letter was going to accomplish his goal in his absence. The purpose of every letter contained in the NT was to impart apostolic or prophetic instruction.)

It claims to have the ability to produce saving faith. Jn 20:30,31, Ro 10:17

It claims that it should be distributed and read. Col 4:16

It claims that it must be studied and handled correctly. 2Ti 2:15

Through the years I’ve come to believe that the fullness of these (and other) verses were only realized when the body of work we call the Bible came into existence.
Consider 2Ti 3:16,17:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

When Paul penned these words the NT scripture didn’t exist. The general consensus has been that he was speaking of OT scripture and by verse 15 we understand that there was access to OT scripture to some extent. But as Christians would we say that the OT scripture whether in part or complete can accomplish verses 16 & 17? I doubt it, yet the scripture or writings that Paul spoke of could and would completely equip a man of God for every good work.

In Ja 1:25 we read:
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being
not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Robertson tells us that the word translated “looketh” means to stoop and look into, to gaze carefully by the side of, to peer into or to peep into.

Peer or gaze carefully into what? The perfect law of liberty which is God’s word. By what means is this accomplished? I suggest that we are able to accomplish it by having and examining the written word (2Ti 2:15).

It is through The Word that we come to know and see ourselves for what we are.
And it is through The Word that we come to know and realize what we should be.

There are reasons why the early church copied, distributed and eventually compiled the writings of the Apostles and Prophets. One of the reasons was to provide access to the largest audience. Another was for preservation of the writings. But why, for what intent, what purpose did / do they serve?

To generalize; it is universally accepted by the body of Christ that God has delivered His complete will by the Apostles and Prophets. In its written form we call it the Bible.

Those who claim(ed) further or continuing revelation from God (The Papacy, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, William Miller/Charles Russell, Sun Myung Moon just to name a few.) have at least 2 things in common:
1. God has revealed or is revealing His continuing will to or through them.
2. The Bible is incomplete, false or corrupted and they have what is lacking.

Within the body of Christ, these people / groups fall under scrutiny and their doctrine is judged by what standard? By the standard which has all ready been handed down i.e. The Word, The Bible.

There is an acceptance by the body of Christ that what we have in the Bible is God’s completed will for mankind (2Pe 1:3) even though some writings were lost (Col 4:16).

Now this is either by spiritual discernment – the Spirit bearing witness or societal / religious programming. Each of us must draw our own conclusion.

I believe it was the hand of God driving man to His intended goal, His completed message to mankind once and for all delivered and compiled so any who desire may have access (Jer 31:33,34).

The 3 gifts mentioned all have to do with imparting the will of God to mankind.
Tongues broke the barrier of language,
Prophecy (divine inspiration) conferred God’s will and
Knowledge imparted understanding.

These precious gifts were given for the establishing and nurturing of the body of Christ in its infancy – at a when they had nothing else. These gifts of the Holy Spirit were the means by which the early church accomplished and came to know the will of God.


Many thanks and blessings to those who provide this forum!

Peace in Him. - d

[Guest]

Hi doulos,

Thanks for sharing further on your views here. I also appreciate your humility and your professed teachableness on this matter. I am one of those who disagrees with your conclusion about the cessation of gifts, though I agree with almost every affirmation you made about the scriptures.

My position has long been similar to that expressed by Paidion (above), namely, that "that which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13 is not specifically referring to a perfect thing (the New Testament canon), nor to a perfect person (Christ, at His coming), but to the perfect, or more mature, state of Christian life (measured by the scale of mature love for the brethren).

The context is certainly about the supremacy of love among manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Love is not in the same category as gifts, however, but is the proper spirit and motivation for the exercise of any gift. While we remain imperfect in love, we remain imperfect in the proper exercise of the gifts. "We know in part [not perfectly, not maturely], and we prophesy in part [not perfectly, not maturely]."

Immediately after the debated comment about "that which is perfect" coming and "that which is in part" being done away, Paul gives the illustration of a child becoming a man [maturing]. He says that, while a child, he spoke, thought and acted as a child [immaturely]. When manhood came [maturity, that which is perfect], he "put away" childish things [or "that which is in part" was "done away"].

Now Paul is not saying that, upon becoming a man, he ceased to speak, think and act [the things which he did childishly in his childhood]. Instead, he ceased to speak, think and act "as a child" and began to do all those same things "as a man" or "maturely."

When 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 is correlated with verse 11, it seems clear that imperfect gifts of the Spirit (prophecying and knowing in part) parallel Paul's thinking, speaking and acting as a child, whereas "that which is perfect" coming corresponds with his becoming a man. In both cases, the immature form of activity is "done away" or "put away," in favor of the more mature version of the same activities. In the case of the gifts, the more mature mode is clearly the doing of them in love for the brethren.

The statement of verse 8, that "whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away" stands on its own. There will come a time when the gifts themselves will have served their purpose and become obsolete. What is their purpose?

Apparently, according to Ephesians 4:12, the purpose of gifts is "for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." Their usefulness for this purpose will apparently be past when Jesus returns and the church needs no further growth. That would explain why Paul would say to the church in Corinth that they will "come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 1:7).

Your identification of "that which is perfect" with the scriptures seems to depend heavily upon the verbal similarity in the expression "perfect law of liberty" in James 1:25. However, what James refers to by this term is not the canon of scripture—least of all the New Testament canon, which was far from complete, or "perfect," when James wrote these words. He was referring, it would seem to what he later referred to as the "royal law" (2:8). This law is that ancient command, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (James 2:8; Lev.19:18). It is this law, not the completed New Testament, that James refers to as "perfect."

Those who argue for cessation of the gifts are often seeking to protect the closed canon of scripture, in that they misinterpret the continuation of the gifts as a watering-down of the scriptural revelation. However, the gifts of prophecy and tongues were never in competition with the scriptures, and did not overlap in their purpose. The New Testament was not written through the gifts of prophecy or tongues. Those gifts functioned in individual congregations for local or personal edification (1 Cor.14:3-5), while the apostolic writings, which became scripture, were more broadly applicable to all Christians (even though many of the writings were addressed to particular churches or individuals).

Since the gifts were not instrumental in the writing of the New Testament, nor in any way did they duplicate the function or purpose of the apostolic writings, the gifts' usefulness was not diminished by the completion of the New Testament, and their continuation does not in any way challenge the completeness of the New Testament revelation.

For example, the only examples of a prophet using the gift of prophecy in the book of Acts are those of Agabus' two recorded prophecies. In one case, he predicted an immanent famine (Acts 11:28), and in the other, Paul's being bound in Jerusalem by the Jews (Acts 21:10-11). If the New Testament had been complete and in the hands of every Christian in Agabus' days, how would that diminish the relevance or value of his prophecies to those who heard them?

Agabus never wrote any books of scripture, so there is no reason to believe that the continuation of gifts like his today would result in further scriptures being written. The New Testament was not written by prophets, but by apostles. Prophecy is not in competition with apostolic authority.

It would be a strange and sad thing if the God who spoke the universe into existence, and spoke to His people through His prophetic Spirit throughout thousands of years of history, were to suddenly, and without explanation, lapse into prophetic silence, at a time when the church is still so far from the goal that prophecy was given to help her reach.

[Guest]

I will have to read this article a few more times, but I found it interesting the 1st time through

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/peoplestongues.html