What is the deal with healing?

Jim
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by Jim » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:01 pm

Michelle wrote:I'm with you all the way, Homer. I was just involved in prayer and fasting for a very sick baby who only lived a week. Her parents, grandparents, and her uncle (who is a friend of mine) and all the people praying were full of faith that she would be healed. It's cruel to tell any of us that our faith was too weak to keep that baby alive.
Lord have mercy.

Maybe something here maybe able to help in comforting the parents and those involved.


Fr. Steven Kostoff, Rector of Christ the Savior / Holy Spirit Church, Cincinnati, OH, recently posted to his congregation some reflections on the burial of a newborn child. They speak eloquently to this tragic yet thoroughly Paschal event. We include portions of them here for their pastoral sensitivity and their illustration of the depths and power of the theological message expressed by the burial service.

Yesterday, we served The Order for the Burial of an Infant over and on behalf of a two-day old boy, who died at Children's Hospital on Saturday.

Humanly speaking, there is nothing more heartbreaking than this: a tiny infant dressed in white baptismal clothes, lying in the middle of the church in a coffin that looks more like a small box, surrounded by his grieving family and friends. With an open casket, I was deeply struck by the innocence, purity and beauty of this "undefiled infant," as he was called in the funeral service. It was difficult not to keep returning to his coffin and looking at him. Here was an indelible image that will always remain with me. In addition, we witnessed his poor mother, still recovering from giving birth on Friday, together with a father who was momentarily elated with the birth of his firstborn son, joined together in mutual grief at their little son's burial service. The initial impact of death is that of irrevocable lost. This is why we sing so realistically, "I weep and wail when I think upon death ..."

We use a completely different funeral service for infants, basically meaning children under the age of seven. This was the first time I had ever served this particular funeral office in my years as a priest. I was struck by the beauty of the service, the certainty of an infant's entrance into the Kingdom of God, and the complete absence of prayers for the "forgiveness of sins" of the departed infant. There is no sin for which he needs to be forgiven -- including so-called "original sin." The service explicitly states that "he has not transgressed Thy divine command" (Ode 6 of the Canon); and that "infants have done no evil" (Ode 9 of the Canon). Since transgressing the divine commandment is inevitable in a fallen world, we pray over a departed adult that God will forgive his/her sins. But for an infant, the service repeatedly refers to the departed infant as "undefiled," "uncorrupted," "most-pure," "truly blessed," and even "holy." This is not sentimentalism meant to make us feel better. It rather reveals a profound theological truth.

A child, according to Orthodox Christian teaching, is not born a "guilty sinner." A child is not baptized in order to wash away the stain of "original sin" with its attendant guilt. We believe that a child is born bearing the consequences of "original sin," often referred to as "ancestral sin" by Orthodox theologians precisely in order to distinguish it from "original sin." The consequences of ancestral sin are corruption and death. A child is born into a fallen, broken, and corrupted world, grievously wounded by sin and death. There is nothing sentimental in that assessment of our human condition! Disease and physical deformities are a part of this world, caused by humankind's initial alienation from God -- and providentially allowed by God. Thus a child is never too young to die. And hence the tragic nature of life, nowhere more clearly revealed than in the death of an innocent infant. An infant is baptized in order to be saved from the consequences of the ancestral sin that lead each and every person inevitably to sin and be subject to corruption and death. The child needs to be "born again of water and the Spirit" -- the Mystery of Baptism -- in order to "put on Christ" and the gift of immortality that is received only through sacramentally partaking of the death and resurrection of Christ.

The entire funeral service was permeated by the sure hope and conviction that this little child has been "translated unto Thee," and that he is now "a partaker of Thy Heavenly good things." (Ode 6 of the Canon). His death is treated realistically, and the pathos of an uncompleted earthly life is clearly acknowledged. Yet his death is his entrance to life with God in His eternal Kingdom:

By Thy righteous judgment, Thou hast cut down like a green herb before it has completely sprouted, the infant that Thou hast taken, O Lord. But, as Thou hast led him unto the divine mountain of eternal good things, do Thou plant him there, O Word.

The sword of death has come and cut thee off like a young branch, O blessed one that has not been tempted by worldly sweetness. But, lo, Christ openeth the heavenly gates unto Thee, joining Thee unto the elect, since He is deeply compassionate. (Ode 5 of the Canon)

O Most-perfect Word, Who didst reveal Thyself as perfect Infant: Thou hast taken unto Thyself an infant imperfect in growth. Give him rest with all the Righteous who have been well-pleasing unto Thee, O only Lover of mankind. (Ode 3 of the Canon)

The suffering hearts of the mother and father are not forgotten in the prayers of the service, expressed with a certain rhetorical style that may no longer be fashionable, but which retains a genuinely poignant realism:

No one is more pitiful than a mother, and no one is more wretched than a father, for their inward beings are troubled when they send forth their infants before them. Great is the pain of their hearts because of their children ... (Ikos following Ode 6 of the Canon)

This is further intensified in a hymn that seeks to articulate the words of the infant as if he could communicate with those left behind. Here we find a realistic acknowledgment of intense grief, suffused with a certain hope that God can bring relief to that very grief:

"O God, God, Who hast summoned me: Be Thou the consolation of my household now, for a great lamentation has befallen them. For all have fixed their gaze on me, having me as their only-begotten one. But do Thou, Who wast born of a Virgin Mother, refresh the inward parts of my mother, and bedew the heart of my father with this: Alleluia." (Ikos following Ode 6 of the Canon)

These hymns and prayers are profoundly comforting, not primarily for psychological and emotional reasons, but because they reveal what is actually true: that Christ has overcome death, trampling it down on our behalf by His glorious Resurrection. Death itself has been transformed from within. Horror and darkness give way to hope and life. The healing grace of God does not come through pious, psychological or emotional sentiment, but through the awareness of this Truth as it penetrates our minds and hearts through the gift of faith. What other kind of "comfort" can there be when parents, relatives and friends must bear the cross of the death of a beloved infant? Grief and sorrow over such a loss never leave us, but they can be transmuted and transformed in time by the joy of knowing God's love, poured out to us through His beloved Son and our Savior, Jesus Christ.


http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-article. ... &YEAR=2009
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

steve7150
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:34 pm

Michelle wrote:
I'm with you all the way, Homer. I was just involved in prayer and fasting for a very sick baby who only lived a week. Her parents, grandparents, and her uncle (who is a friend of mine) and all the people praying were full of faith that she would be healed. It's cruel to tell any of us that our faith was too weak to keep that baby alive.







You know it would be cruel to say this, but i did have to wonder about something. Jesus did say in some cases that people's faith did matter in their healing and also it was said that he could do few miracles once because of lack of faith. It's Jesus who sometimes made faith an issue like "ye of little faith" and Peter sinking in the water when he took his eyes off Jesus therefore was Jesus being cruel? Jesus healed everyone who asked yet apparently now God does'nt and does things in his own way, yet Jesus is God's revealed will so what's missing? Anyway what i come away with is that believing God will heal may help and that's the path i choose but if he did'nt it would'nt change my faith.

SteveF

Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by SteveF » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:18 pm

TK wrote:
I think the Matthew reference indicates that Is. 53 was talking about physical healing, and not only "spiritual" healing. Jesus had not yet died, so it may not address the atonement question.
Hi TK, yes, I agree that the first half of the verse in Isaiah 53:4 is talking about physical healing. Here’s why I think Mat 8:17 is a key verse to show that healing is not in the atonement. The Word of Faith teachers I heard who taught healing in the atonement would look to Isaiah 53:4 as key verse to show healing in the atonement. They would spend a lot of time showing that the particular words in Hebrew referred to physical healing. The only thing is, as you mentioned, Mat 8:17 says it was fulfilled during his earthly ministry. If you understand Isaiah 53 in this context then the verse takes on a different understanding than the W of F teachers teach.

Here the verse:

Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

After the phrase “yet we” I see this verse changing focus from His earthly ministry to the atonement . Here’s my paraphrase of Is 53:4

Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows (during his earthly ministry) but in spite of this fact we still esteemed him smitten by God, and afflicted.

Therefore, it doesn't matter if the words in Hebrew refer to physical sickness since it's not referring to the atonement on the cross anyway. I think Mat 8 makes this clear.
Of course we know that everyone does not get healed, but that is not God's fault.
TK, while I do agree with you that “we have not because we ask not” I see another side in the scripture as well.

In 2 Tim 4:20 I don’t get the impression that Paul thought it was strange to leave someone behind because they were sick.

Also, in Phil 2 there an account of a sick brother named Epaphroditus. Here’ the account:

Php 2:25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need,
Php 2:26 for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill.
Php 2:27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.


In this account Paul seems to indicate the decision as to whether he would be healed or not is solely in the hands of God “God had mercy on him”. He saw God’s mercy as a kindness toward him as well.

As I say TK, I do agree with you to an extent but I don’t think we can say that it’s solely in our hands if we receive healing or not.

God Bless
Steve

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TK
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by TK » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:39 am

SteveF wrote:
As I say TK, I do agree with you to an extent but I don’t think we can say that it’s solely in our hands if we receive healing or not.
But if we think that it is God's will that someone not be healed, how can we then ever have true faith? We are always forced to hedge our bets by throwing in faith-killing phrases like "if it be your will."

I'd rather start from the premise that God wants to heal, that it is not God's best that a child die, or that a young parent die, etc. I dont see how true faith is possible otherwise.

When Peter and John came upon the lame man, they didnt say "In the name of jesus Christ of nazareth rise and walk if it's God will"-- no they just commanded the man to get up and walk. They didnt seem to have any doubts about the matter.

That is why Steve7150s statement about whether healing(like happened with the apostles) has ended is an important one. if a person thinks that those sorts of things (like the miraculous healing of the lame man, etc) simply dont happen anymore, then obviously faith for such things cannot follow.

Further, if a person thinks that sometimes its God's will to heal and other times it is not, I do not see how faith can follow from that. Why ever pray for healing-- instead just pray "Thy will be done" and move on.

So my default position is that God wants to heal. If God doesn't want to heal then I dont want to know about it.

TK

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Suzana
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by Suzana » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:56 am

TK wrote:When Peter and John came upon the lame man, they didnt say "In the name of jesus Christ of nazareth rise and walk if it's God will"-- no they just commanded the man to get up and walk. They didnt seem to have any doubts about the matter.
But they were personally commissioned by Jesus, so we would expect them to speak with authority like that.

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

I don’t think every other believer that was contemporary with the apostles (eg the three thousand that were added to the church in one day) went around doing the same things as the apostles, so why are we all expected to today, even if that isn’t the gift God has given us, and perhaps made to feel like failures if the desired result isn’t forthcoming?
Certainly we should pray for healings, we are told to bring our petitions to Him; there must be times when God gives an assurance that it is His will to heal in a particular case, then I think that would be the time to speak out with authority and real faith.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Last edited by Suzana on Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SteveF

Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by SteveF » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:41 pm

But if we think that it is God's will that someone not be healed, how can we then ever have true faith? We are always forced to hedge our bets by throwing in faith-killing phrases like "if it be your will."
TK, far be it from me to discourage anyone’s faith and I agree that we don’t exercise enough faith in God (especially here in North America) but here’s my concern. The Word of Faith teaching tends to turn our relationship of faith in God into a mechanical non-relational experience. Rather than faith being a trust in your heavenly Father it becomes an impersonal endeavour to follow the correct techniques in order to obtain what you ask for. Although having specific prayer requests answered is a very important part of the Christian life, I don’t think it’s the most important. I think the most important is our relationship with God. This is something the W of F teaching tends to steer one away from.

I say this from experience because I was introduced to the Wof F movement back in the 80’s and tried to follow it’s teaching for a couple of years. I got so focused on following the correct technique that it actually got to the point where I missed my relationship with God. Thankfully I see God as my Father again and HE has become the object of my faith. In fact He’s such a loving Father that even when I don’t follow all of the right techniques He still answers my prayers and takes care of me.
So my default position is that God wants to heal. If God doesn't want to heal then I dont want to know about it.
I do appreciate and admire your zeal TK. One thing I have noticed though, is the W of F teachers fail to take into account the whole council of scripture on various subjects. For instance, you rarely, if ever , hear them address the two scriptures I brought up from Timothy and Philippians.


Susana wrote:
Certainly we should pray for healings, we are told to bring our petitions to Him; there must be times when God gives an assurance that it is His will to heal in a particular case, then I think that would be the time to speak out with authority and real faith.
I agree

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TK
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by TK » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:53 pm

Yeah- i can certainly agree with you when it comes of W of F teaching. I really dont buy that at all. I dont think there are magical incantations or using certain words the right way that will meet the requirements of some formula to ensure that someone gets healed.

But i think the Church, perhaps primarily in North America, has swung too far the other way. Our church gets reports from missionaries in India from time to time about what they are seeing and it is quite humbling, but inspirational as well.

I think part of the problem may lie more in the manner of our praying than in using certain words the right way.

TK

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TK
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by TK » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:25 am

Suzana wrote:
But they were personally commissioned by Jesus, so we would expect them to speak with authority like that.
True. But I find it interesting how 99.9% of Christians have no problem at all with applying the Great Commission to us today, even though it was only personally spoken to the disciples who were present back then. But when it comes to verses like "And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give." (Mt. 10:7-8) 99.9% of Christians think that was just for the disciples.

Were not all of Jesus statements and commands make personally to the disciples? So I am not sure where we can draw the line as to what applies to us today and what does not. I think the easiest route that we take is to simply lower what the Bible says to our level of experience.

TK

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Homer
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by Homer » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:12 am

Hi TK,

You wrote:
But if we think that it is God's will that someone not be healed, how can we then ever have true faith? We are always forced to hedge our bets by throwing in faith-killing phrases like "if it be your will."

I'd rather start from the premise that God wants to heal, that it is not God's best that a child die, or that a young parent die, etc. I dont see how true faith is possible otherwise.
True faith will accept God's answer as the best answer, whether it is what we want or not.

James says it well:

James 4:13-15 (New King James Version)

13. Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14. whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.”


In any case, it is up to God whether we live another day, whether we are presently sick or not. I have no life threatening condition at this moment, other than age, but I often pray that I will live longer than my wife because it would be very hard for her to be alone (as it would be for me), but I realize I probably will not. Why wait until you are sick to pray? Surely God can prevent illness as easily as He can cure it, yet we get sick. And why would we expect God to heal disease any more than we expect his answer to our prayers regarding food, clothes, homes, business, etc?

He once fed the children of Israel with manna and Jesus fed the 5000 who had nothing to eat, but when they came back for more food, He refused. And food is at least as important as healing from disease. He doesn't seem to be doing food miracles as He once did.

As Suzanna has written, things are not the same as they were when Jesus and the Apostles were walking this earth. He was compassionate but there was another purpose:

John 20:30-31 (New King James Version)

30. And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31. but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

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Suzana
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by Suzana » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:30 am

Hi TK,

I actually don’t think that healing and other miracles ceased with the apostles. I’m just questioning whether all the gifts of the Spirit were similarly given to ALL the believers in that same era in the same way as to the apostles, who were foundational to the building of the church.
Today, I can certainly envisage that someone should be able to declare healing in Jesus’ name the way the apostles did, IF being led to do so by the Holy Spirit.
I didn’t mean to imply that God can’t commission people today for specific ministry, at different times, or that the gifts of the Spirit aren’t for today – just that there are different callings, & various gifts which the Holy Spirit distributes as He wills. (1Cor 12:11)
Suzana
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