What is the deal with healing?

SteveF

Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by SteveF » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:42 am

TK wrote
Regarding your first question- yes i do have some reservations. i have heard very good cases on both sides of the argument, from people i really respect. Mt. 8:16-17 almost seals it for me, but not quite. ("When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities, And bore our sicknesses.”)
Hi TK, which way does this verse sway you? I know people make arguments from both sides from this verse. To me it's a key verse that shows healing is NOT in the atonement. I am speaking of physical healing in the present life. I agree with Michelle that we will all eventually experience ultimate healing as a result of Jesus’ sacrifice.

Steve

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TK
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by TK » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:17 pm

Hi SteveF-

I think the Matthew reference indicates that Is. 53 was talking about physical healing, and not only "spiritual" healing. Jesus had not yet died, so it may not address the atonement question.

In Mt 10:8, Jesus says: "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."

I think Jesus still says the same to us today, and this was not meant only for the disciples who were with him then. Of course many would disagree with me but that's okay.

I think James 2:15-17 also applies to dealing with physical sickness: "Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

The way I look at it is this-- if we don't EXPECT or BELIEVE that people will really be healed when we pray with them, even miraculously so, then I don't think we will have very good results. Of course we know that everyone does not get healed, but that is not God's fault.

TK

steve7150
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:55 pm

I think the Matthew reference indicates that Is. 53 was talking about physical healing, and not only "spiritual" healing. Jesus had not yet died, so it may not address the atonement question.





It could indicate that the specific healings that Jesus performed were specifically to fulfill Isa 53 and that any other healings are not guarenteed by the atonement.
I don't think healing is guarenteed in the atonement but it does seem to me there is a correlation between our faith that God will really heal us and it actually happening. Many people pray to be healed but really have a belief that it's probably not going to happen , or that they have to go to someone else to pray for them.
I think there is enough in the NT to believe God will heal us but like the seed taking time to grow and be ready for harvesting it may take maintaining our faith until the harvest and that could be difficult because we focus on the natural.

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Homer
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by Homer » Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:14 pm

The way I look at it is this-- if we don't EXPECT or BELIEVE that people will really be healed when we pray with them, even miraculously so, then I don't think we will have very good results. Of course we know that everyone does not get healed, but that is not God's fault.
We all die, and most of us will die of disease. So how is it not "God's fault"? Unless you mean its Adam's fault? This statement implies that were it not for weak faith (the persons praying for the sick or the sick persons?) we would be healed. But even if we are, it is only temporary.

The church we attended for many years had a long time member who got cancer. His outlook was not good. He was anointed with oil and prayed for more than once and was sure he would be healed, but he gradually worsened and died. Another man, not long a Christian, was diagnosed with colon cancer. He was in despair and contemplating suicide. The church was praying for him and the surgeon went in and found no cancer, only a small scar. So are we to believe the man with much faith died because some (or all) who prayed for him had little faith? And the man with little faith was healed when the same people prayed for him?

IMO we should pray for the sick, in hope, and realize God will answer in His way.

Last December our dear niece died at 51, after suffering for a long time. She was a good Christian person we loved much. The surgeon had advised her that "it was time to roll the dice", i.e. risk surgery for a chance to regain her health. We all prayed for her and I believed she would get well, but complications set in after surgery and she died. I just looked again at the card I received from her sister who loved her so much. She closed with: "Our hearts are broken. But God answered His way."

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Michelle
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by Michelle » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:14 pm

I'm with you all the way, Homer. I was just involved in prayer and fasting for a very sick baby who only lived a week. Her parents, grandparents, and her uncle (who is a friend of mine) and all the people praying were full of faith that she would be healed. It's cruel to tell any of us that our faith was too weak to keep that baby alive.

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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:39 pm

It's cruel to tell any of us that our faith was too weak to keep that baby alive.



I would never tell anyone that nor do i think healing is guarenteed but Jesus did say "daughter your faith has healed you" and there were several times in the NT that it seemed to matter.
Did healing through faith end with the Apostles? I'm not aware of it ending although many believers think it did.

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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:10 pm

The church we attended for many years had a long time member who got cancer. His outlook was not good. He was anointed with oil and prayed for more than once and was sure he would be healed, but he gradually worsened and died. Another man, not long a Christian, was diagnosed with colon cancer. He was in despair and contemplating suicide. The church was praying for him and the surgeon went in and found no cancer, only a small scar. So are we to believe the man with much faith died because some (or all) who prayed for him had little faith? And the man with little faith was healed when the same people prayed for him?

IMO we should pray for the sick, in hope, and realize God will answer in His way.







Yes God does everything in his own way, but only God can know someone's heart and really know someone's faith. Just speaking in general sometimes people say the right things in public but may be different inside. They may be wonderful Christians and do and say the right things but deep in their hearts they just may not really believe God will really heal them. It's not weak faith , more like a certain kind of faith.
Mother Theresa was a wonderful Christian who did amazing things and she was inspired by Jesus yet she admitted that sometimes she wondered if God was there. If she did'nt admit that, would anyone ever guess how she felt inside?

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Michelle
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by Michelle » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:34 pm

steve7150 wrote:It's cruel to tell any of us that our faith was too weak to keep that baby alive.



I would never tell anyone that nor do i think healing is guarenteed but Jesus did say "daughter your faith has healed you" and there were several times in the NT that it seemed to matter.
Did healing through faith end with the Apostles? I'm not aware of it ending although many believers think it did.
Steve, I was responding to TK's comment "but that is not God's fault." I guess I don't believe it's important to try to find out who is at fault, and the implication that the people praying lacked faith, had weak faith, or had the wrong kind of faith because surely they were at fault, is hurtful, I believe.

I am kind of curious about your last two sentences.
Did healing through faith end with the Apostles? I'm not aware of it ending although many believers think it did.
What about my prayers and fasting made you think that I am one of those believers who think healings ended?

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TK
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by TK » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:41 pm

Homer--

I can certainly appreciate what you are saying. I thought the exact same way for many many years. My thinking has only recently begin to change- over the past few years.

Bottom line, I believe that the Christian experience should be different than the experience of the world at large. I think we are given a degree of authority over sickness, through Jesus. If the experience of the true church when it comes to healing is no different than the world in general, I believe there is something wrong with that picture.

Of course I dont have all the answers, in fact i am not sure that i have any of the answers(in fact I am battling a chest cold right now!)- but the answer I cannot now accept is that we simply pray and que sera sera, whatever will be will be. non-christians may not pray at all and get the same result. And I dont believe that God wants us to pray that way.

We do indeed get old and die, but I do not think that premature death is a work of the Lord. As you indicated, we do live in a fallen world.

Michelle- I would never blame anyone for anything. All I am saying is that perhaps if we are not seeing very good results when we pray for someone to be healed, maybe we need to try something different.

TK

steve7150
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Re: What is the deal with healing?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:46 pm

I am kind of curious about your last two sentences.


Did healing through faith end with the Apostles? I'm not aware of it ending although many believers think it did.

What about my prayers and fasting made you think that I am one of those believers who think healings ended?
Michelle






Hi Michelle, Sorry i did'nt mean you, i just meant generally speaking many believe this i think.

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