Augustinian Syllogism

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:15 pm

1. Nothing happens apart from the will of God.

2. Over 90% of people (the non-elect) will suffer eternal torment.

Conclusion #1
Therefore it is God's will that over 90% of people will suffer eternal torment.

3. God's essence is love ---- total love. All of his choices and actions are good.

Conclusion #2
Therefore it is good that over 90% of people will suffer eternal torment.

Post by **_roblaine** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:35 pm

If these premises are true, the only answer that can be correct is, yes.

Robin

Post by **_Benzoic** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:59 pm

Paidion wrote:
3. God's essence is love ---- total love. All of his choices and actions are good.

Is love the only attribute which characterizes His essence?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:25 am

Maybe i'm missing something but "love" fulfills the law and the weightier parts of the law are justice,mercy and faithfullness (Matt 23.23).
So if God is love then mercy is his second attribute and where is it found in eternal torment?
Will some burn at 5000 degrees but the less evil at 2500 degrees eternally?

Post by **_Benzoic** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:27 pm

Your beliefs regarding the lost are built upon speculation and not scripture taken at face value.

"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Romans 9:16-20

I'm not replying anymore.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:53 pm

Benzoic:

Your beliefs regarding the lost are built upon speculation and not scripture taken at face value.

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? Romans 9:20-22

I'm not replying anymore.

To whom are you addressing this reply, Benzoic?

The only issue raised by me is whether or not a particular Augustinian syllogism is a valid argument. Four persons, including myself voted that it is.

However, if Conclusion #2, (Therefore it is good that over 90% of people will suffer eternal torment) follows from the premises, and if this conclusion is false, then it follows logically that at least one of the premises must be false. If that is the case, the question is, which one(s)?

Post by **_TK** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:06 pm

the logic is sound, but the conclusions unsettling; i suspect premise #1 is untrue, although this is unsettling as well; #2 is what i wish were not true, but if wishes were fishes we would all cast nets.

obviously conclusions #1 and #2 are extremely unpalatable, and as written border on absurdity, which leads to the conclusion that one or more of the premises must not be true.

sorry for the rambling; just thinking as i am typing.

TK

Post by **_Thomas** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:18 am

Does conclusion #2 follow from the three premises?

Yes

1. Nothing happens apart from the will of God.

Sin happens. Sin is that which is against the Will of God. God allows it , but does not will it. If He willed it , it would not be sin. False premise.

2. Over 90% of people (the non-elect) will suffer eternal torment.

People will suffer eternal punishment not because they are non-elect (God's Will) , but because they have rejected God (man's will). False premise.

Conclusion #1
Therefore it is God's will that over 90% of people will suffer eternal torment.

God is merciful , He freely offers His Grace for man's salvation.It is not His will that any be lost. However this Grace can be resisted and it is this rejection of salvation that leads to eternal punishment. Therefore , God is merciful and just. It is justice to punish those who reject Him.
False conclusion.

3. God's essence is love ---- total love. All of his choices and actions are good.

True. From His perspective , not necessarily from ours.

Conclusion #2
Therefore it is good that over 90% of people will suffer eternal torment.

It is just. And justice is an attribute of good. It is not God who condemns us , we condemn ourselves. God , in His mercy has given us a way out through Christ.

Even with false premises , conclusion #2 would be true.

Thomas

The Narrow Path Ministries