Satan Loosed for a Little While

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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:04 pm

Father_of_five wrote:
Derek wrote:Todd,

How do you interpret 6:9-10? This is important, since they say basically the same thing.
Derek,

While I appreciate your question, I think this will take us in new directions which should probably be discussed in a different thread. If you care to start a new one with your interpretation, I may decide to contribute. Honestly, I haven't spent nearly as much time considering Rev 6 as I have Rev 20.

Todd
I think it is very relevant to how we interpret 20:4, since they both contain almost the exact same words. Therefore it is directly related to the topic at hand.

You cannot interpret "slain for the word of God" very differently from "beheaded for the word of God". 6:9 is obviously speaking of some type of martyrdom, which is clear from their crys for vengence to God. The exact same words are in 20:4, yet you interpret that to mean "the renewing of your mind". If "slain for the word of God" means martyrdom, then in all likelyhood "beheaded for the word of God" means the same thing.

I am trying to see if you interpret the two passages consistently. If you don't want to answer, then don't worry about it. It really doesn't matter to me. But I do think that it's directly related to this thread.

God bless,
Last edited by _AlexRodriguez on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:53 pm

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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:07 pm

I am sure in most cases a martyr would rather live than die, just not at the cost of denying his faith.

By the way, being martyred is still being murdered. Jesus for instance, was a martyr, yet He was most certainly murdered (Acts 7:52). Had He had His way, He would have taken another way (Lk 22:42), but He desired that the Father's will be done over His own, so He chose martyrdom.

Many of the prophets were martyred, yet it is still said that they were murdered (Mat. 23:35).

Martyrdom is something done to a person by another person (or system, such as a wicked govt. or institution).

Let's look at some very similar statements from Revelation. I can interpret these all consistently.

Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

John was exiled "becuase of the word of God". He was "a fellow partaker" in some kind of tribulation. As we'll see below, the audience of this book, were also being persecuted.


Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"


These were slain "because of the word of God".

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

These were beheaded "because of the word of God".

In all three verses, these people have had something done to them, because there were others who did not like what they believed. They all stood firm in the word of God and chose exile, being slain, and being beheaded respectively. It only makes sense, to interpret (at least the latter two, since the first is not a vision, and should be taken litterally) as symbolizeing something similar the the things the visions contained. Namely being killed, or punished, "becuase of the word of God".

It needs to be made clear that part of the purpose of Revelation was to give encouragement to those being persecuted. See the following verses relevent to the topic of persecution.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

In these three verses we see a group of believers who are gonig through actual suffering and persecution as this is literal, and not part of any vision, but of the epistle section of the book.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. [-these verses are symbolic of the persecution of the remnant]

I have made my case biblically. Comparing this passage with others that are unmistakably about martyrdom. These verses all support the notion that Rev. 20:4, in keeping with the general theme of the book, and the fact that in at least two other cases, suffering and persecution were "becasue of the word", that "beheaded"
, is also about martyrdom/persecution. Hopefully you are willing to discuss Rev. 20 as part of Revelation. All of these things must be taken into account, as they are part of the context of the vision in chap. 20.

Each of us has a choice each day to deny Christ or live faithfully. Paul said, "I die daily" (1 Cor 15:31) reaffirming his [spiritual] martyrdom.
I don't think Paul is talking about "spiritual death" there. Look at the verse in it's context.

1Co 15:30 Why are we also in danger every hour?
1Co 15:31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Co 15:32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.


Paul is saying that he faces death everyday. He faces actual martyrdom.

He says a similar statement in Romans.

Rom 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."


Again, actual martyrdom is in view. Not spiritual martyrdom (whatever that is!).


God bless,
Last edited by _AlexRodriguez on Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:54 am

Obviously, Derek, if you apply two different methods to interpreting Revelation you will get two different interpretations. I don't feel lead to continue this back-and-forth. I do wish you God's speed in your efforts to encourage and edify others for Christ.

God Bless,

Todd
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:22 am

Father_of_five wrote:Obviously, Derek, if you apply two different methods to interpreting Revelation you will get two different interpretations. I don't feel lead to continue this back-and-forth. I do wish you God's speed in your efforts to encourage and edify others for Christ.

God Bless,

Todd
Same to you brother. I always enjoy our exchanges. However, I would encourage you to note that much of what I quoted above is from the epistle section of Reveleation (the first 3-4 chapters). These were real churches, with real people, real martyrs, etc. Interpreting them metaphorically would be akin to interpreting Romans, or Ephesians that way. Not a good idea. These beginning sections should in some sense govern our interpretation of the book as a whole in my opinion, as they set the overall tone and scope of the book, by helping us understand how this audience would have understood it (which helps us understand what the author meant). This does not mean that the rest of the book isn't symbolic. It just means the symbols probably correspond in some sense to the audience the book was written to. Namely persecuted Christians.

God bless,
Last edited by _AlexRodriguez on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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