The "Godhead"?

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Post by _Paidion » Mon May 14, 2007 3:28 pm

What exactly is meant by this term Godhead?
The term “Godhead” is equivalent to the term “Deity”. To say that there is only one “Deity” does not imply that there is only one divine Individual. Consider an analogous word, “humanity”. One could say that there is only one “humanity”, and yet there are clearly billions of human individuals within humanity.

I understand “The Logos of God” in John 1:1 to refer to the Son of God. The primary meaning of “logos” is “expression”. Jesus is the expression of God the Father ---- the exact expression. In Hebrews 1:3, Jesus is said to be “the exact expression of [God’s] essence”, so exact, so identical, that Jesus was able to say, in response to Philip’s request, “Show us the Father”, “He who has seen me has seen the Father”. Jesus did not mean as in Oneness theology, that He was, in fact, the Father, but Another, exactly like the Father.

Clearly Jesus existed before His birth. He said, “Before Abraham I am”. I don’t know how He could have stated His pre-existence any more clearly.

The expression “Logos of God” also occurs in the following passage:

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. Hebrews 4:12-12

Here the Logos is said to be living. This in itself suggests a living being of some kind, and not a mere quality. What but a person can “discern the thoughts and intents of the heart”?

“And before Him no creature is hidden.” Can this be said of a quality of God? Can it be said of anything impersonal?

In verse 12, the author seems to link our “great high priest…. Jesus the Son of God” with the “Logos of God” about which he was just speaking.

But how can it be that “the Logos was with God and the Logos was God”? That’s the way a lot of people read the statement, stressing the word “was”. If that were what John intended to express, then we had better all become modalists. Besides, how could the Logos be with God and yet be God? Can God be with Himself?

In Greek, the statement reads quite differently. First of all the Logos is said to be “pros ton theon” (toward God). Notice the definite article before “theon”. That means that “theon” refers to God the Father). The basic meaning of the preposition “pros” when followed by the accusative case, is “toward”. Often it is translated in some other way, since “toward” sometimes seems awkward in English, even though the meaning is clear. For example in 2 Peter 1:3, the RSV has: “His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness.” Literally, it reads “having given all to us of His divine power toward life and piety.” We see that the phrase makes sense even if we retain the basic meaning of “pros”. In my opinion, it should so translated as “toward” in John 1:1 also. But then what would it mean to say, “The Logos was toward God”? According to Abbott-Smith’s Greek Lexicon, the word is sometimes used of “mental direction, hostile or otherwise”. The first words of John 6:52 is given as an example of this --- literally, “Then the Jews fought toward one another.” So John may mean in John 1:1 that the Logos had a positive mental direction toward God, that is, He was in unity with Him in all of His wishes and decisions. Come to think of it, in that sense, one could say that He was “with God”. We sometimes use “with” that way in English. e.g. “George is with me in this plan.”

Now the second phrase of John 1:1 reads “kai theos ān ho logos.”(literally “and God was the Logos) First of all, we notice that the definite article does not occur before “theos”. That should suggest to us that “theos” might not refer to God the Father. The New World Translation of the JWs takes advantage of this fact, and translates the phrase as “The word was a god.” But the word order is wrong for this translation. If the JW translators had been correct, the word order should have been “kai ho logos ān theos”. But the reverse order “theos ān” gives it a different meaning. To discover what this meaning might be, let’s examine similar reverse orders in other passages:

I John 4:6 God is love. The Greek words are: “ho theos agapā estin” (literally “The God love is”). By reversing, “love” and “is”, John indicates that “love” is the quality or kind of thing that God is.

John 17:17 Your word is truth The Greek words are: ‘ho logos ho sos alātheia estin” (literally “The word the one of you truth is”).
By reversing “truth” and “is”, John indicates that “truth” is the kind of thing that God’s word is.

Similarily, by reversing “God” and “was” in John 1:1, John indicates that “God” is the kind of thing the Logos was. A translation which would reflect this idea might be “And the Logos was Deity” or “And the Logos was divine.”

Martin Luther (whatever else he was) was a good Greek scholar. Concerning the phrase “kai theos ān ho logos” inJohn 1:1, he put it succinctly:

The lack of an article is against Sabellianism [modalism]; the word order is against Arianism [who supposedly thought Jesus was a lesser god]

When the NT refers to Jesus as “the only-begotten Son” (not “the one and only Son” as some translations have it), it is speaking of his having been begotten by the Father, as the Father’s first act, as the early writers such as Justin Martyr attest. It was not “an eternal begetting” as was formulated in the fourth century. It was a single act in the beginning of time. If the begetting of His Son, was God’s first act, then it must have occurred at the beginning of time, (in the sense that “time” is merely a measurement of the passing of events).

Thus Arius was mistaken in saying, “There was a time at which the Son did not exist.” Untrue, since there was no “time” before the beginning of time. Justin Martyr compared the begetting of the Son with kindling a small fire from a larger one. The small fire is of the same substance as the larger. In no way does the kindling of the smaller fire lessen the larger one. Yet, the smaller fire has a separate existence.

The Father and the Son share the name “Yahweh”. It was the Son who remained behind and spoke to Abraham, after the two angels went ahead to deal with Sodom and Gomorrah. He was addressed by Abraham as “Yahweh”. Indeed, in Genesis 19:24, two Individuals each of whom is called “Yahweh” are mentioned:

Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven

The Father and the Son share the same spirit. Jesus promised that He and the Father would make their dwelling in the disciples. That is the Holy Spirit. Jesus and the Father dwell in heaven. But they extend their spirit, their personalities into each disciple. Sometimes the NT speaks of the “spirit of God” and sometimes of the “spirit of Christ”. Justin Martyr as well as Trypho (the Jew) spoke of the Holy Spirit. Surely Trypho would not have had a Third Person in mind when he used the term. Nor did Justin ever correct him. However at one point, Justin asked, “Could there be a THIRD Individual who can properly be addressed as “God”? Trypho replied, “Well, hardly, since you’ve taken all this time in trying to convince us that there is even TWO!” If Justin had believed in “the Trinity”, this would have been an ideal time to expound on it. But no, Justin then indicated that he was just testing Trypho to see whether he was contradicting himself. I could not understand in what sense this question was a test of that.

It seems that John recorded Jesus having stated his begetting in John 16:28:

I emerged out of the Father and have come into the Universe. I am leaving the Universe and going to the Father.

The word I translated as “emerged” is “exerchomai”. The prefix “ex” means “out. This has been carried over into English, as in “exit”. But the preposition “ek” (or “ex” before vowels) itself means “out”. This preposition occurs in the text immediately after “exerchomai”. That forms a sort of “double out”.

“Exerchomai” has been translated as “come out” (or whatever the appropriate tense) in every occurrence in the New Testament.

So Jesus emphasized that He came out of the Father, and into the created Universe. When He “ascended” to His Father after His resurrection, He went out of the created Universe to His Father in the Heavenly realm. Notice He didn’t say that He would go “into” His Father again, but simply go “to” (“eis” in Greek) His Father. That is, They remain separate divine Individuals.

Now a word about the term “God” as it is used in the NT. Whenever the definite article “ho” comes before “theos”, the reference is to the Father. When the definite article is not used, the word sometimes refers to Jesus, and sometimes refers to Deity as a quality.
plārōma

Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole plārōma [fullness] of deity dwells bodily.

God’s Son is the complement of the Father. Together they form the one an only plārōma of deity. The word “plārōma” seems to have been used of the complement as well as the fullness. For example, Heracleon, commenting on John 4:16, said that Jesus told the Samaritan woman to go call her plārōma, that is, her complement, who, together with her would form the fullness. Today, some people refer to one’s spouse as “the other half” (or “the better half”) suggesting that the person and his spouse together form a whole (or the fullness).

One also needs to bear in mind that all three NT passages which speak of “one God” refer to the Father:

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.


Part of Jesus’ prayer in John 17 was:

And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

So even Jesus addressed His Father as “the only true God”. Thus, one can understand the position of Unitarians who believe that Jesus is not God. But I think theirs is a position which contradicts a number of Scriptures.

So is He God, or is He not? It all depends upon one’s use of the word “God”.

If by “God” one means “the Father”, then the answer is “No”. Jesus is not God the Father. If by “God” one means “Deity”, then the answer is “yes”. Jesus is equally divine. He was generated (or “begotten”) by God at the beginning of time, and is Another One exactly like the Father. He shares all the divine attributes of the Father. He temporarily divested Himself of His divine attributes while He lived as a man on earth. He shares the same Spirit with the Father. He shares the same name “Yahweh” (the one who was, and is, and is to come) with the Father. To see Jesus is to see the Father. He, like the Father, is worthy of our worship. If He were something other than Deity, it would be idolatry to pray to Him or worship Him.

To sum up, “the Godhead” or “the Deity” is one Plārōma consisting of God the Father, and His Son Jesus. Does that mean there are two Gods? In the sense of divine Individuals, yes. (Gods said, “Let us create man in b]our/b] own image”). In the sense of “true God”, no. In the sense of full Deity (the Plārōma), no.

In short, there is one “True God”;’ there are two “Divine Individuals”; there is one Plārōma of Deity.
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Post by _Ely » Mon May 14, 2007 5:00 pm

Hey paidion,

Thanks for giving a binitarian take on this. Thanks also for being explicit about something which has previously been side-stepped, i.e. for saying that "God" is not a personal being, but an class/type/kind. Thanks for also being upfront and saying that the logos actually divested himself of his divine attributes when he came to Earth.
Paidion wrote:God’s Son is the complement of the Father. Together they form the one an only plārōma of deity. ...

To sum up, “the Godhead” or “the Deity” is one Plārōma consisting of God the Father, and His Son Jesus. Does that mean there are two Gods? In the sense of divine Individuals, yes. (Gods said, “Let us create man in b]our/b] own image”). In the sense of “true God”, no. In the sense of full Deity (the Plārōma), no.
Okay, I want to ask you something about this one plaroma of deity. Is this plaroma a He? If so, can you explain how?

If not, how then do you make sense of those places where someone claims to be the only God in passages like this one:

“ You are My witnesses,” says Yahweh,
“ And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me
.


Isaiah 43:10
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Post by _Paidion » Mon May 14, 2007 10:29 pm

Thank you for your kind words, Ely.

You asked:
Okay, I want to ask you something about this one plaroma of deity. Is this plaroma a He? If so, can you explain how?


No, the plārōma is not a "He", but each of its members is a "He" and either one can speak for it. Analogously, if you should visit a distant planet where there are no human beings, but alien intelligences, you could speak on behalf of humanity.
If not, how then do you make sense of those places where someone claims to be the only God in passages like this one:

“ You are My witnesses,” says Yahweh,
“ And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
I would like to point out that the verse following (vs 11) contains a similar difficulty:

I am God; and beside me there is no Saviour.

If there is only one "He" to God, then how can there be no Saviour besides God? Isn't the Lord Jesus Christ a Saviour? He is called so throughout the New Testament.

Before I attempt to explain the passage you quoted, I'd like to know your explanation of the verse I quoted. I am thinking that the true explanation of either of these, is also the explanation for the other.
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Post by _Ely » Tue May 15, 2007 6:34 am

Paidion,
Paidion wrote:No, the plārōma is not a "He", but each of its members is a "He" and either one can speak for it. Analogously, if you should visit a distant planet where there are no human beings, but alien intelligences, you could speak on behalf of humanity.
But I wouldn't normally speak like this. And if I did speak this way, I would not persist in using singular terms but would switch to plural pronouns to indicate that I am talking about many different individuals who are all humans.

Likewise, in the scriptures, when a group of people (a nation) is being spoken of, plural pronouns normally used ("we", "us", "they", "them" etc). On very rare occasions, singular forms are used, and then they are not used in a sustained manner. They are also not used exclusively in isolation but in conjunction with plural forms (i.e. Numbers 20:14-21, 21:21-24).

But, when God is being spoken of, 99:9% of the time (thousands) single pronouns are used, "I", "Me", "My", "He", "His", "Him. Importantly, not once do we see an impersonal pronoun ("it") used with reference to Yahweh. Yes, there are a few occasions where plural pronouns are used, but these must surely be interpreted in light of the overwhelming abundance of singular pronouns.

I would like to point out that the verse following (vs 11) contains a similar difficulty:

I am God; and beside me there is no Saviour.

If there is only one "He" to God, then how can there be no Saviour besides God? Isn't the Lord Jesus Christ a Saviour? He is called so throughout the New Testament.

Before I attempt to explain the passage you quoted, I'd like to know your explanation of the verse I quoted. I am thinking that the true explanation of either of these, is also the explanation for the other.
There are indeed other saviours. Yahweh raised up saviours for Israel (Judges 3:9, Nehemiah 9:27). Yahweh raised up Yeshua, the greatest of all saviours. But Yahweh Elohim, He is the ultimate Saviour from Whom all other saviours get their authority from.

Likewise, there are many gods. There are the gods of the pagans (chemosh, baal, ashtoreth). Rulers and judges are also called gods (e.g. Psalm 82/ John 10). But Yahweh alone, He, He, is the one and only true and ultimate, God.
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Post by _Paidion » Tue May 15, 2007 10:52 am

But, when God is being spoken of, 99:9% of the time (thousands) single pronouns are used, "I", "Me", "My", "He", "His", "Him. Importantly, not once do we see an impersonal pronoun ("it") used with reference to Yahweh. Yes, there are a few occasions where plural pronouns are used, but these must surely be interpreted in light of the overwhelming abundance of singular pronouns.
Yes, I agree that my analogy about speaking for humanity was inadequate ---- as all analogies are in one or more respects.

It was always Yahweh the Father, or Yahweh the Son, who spoke to people. But in their case, since they were and are exactly alike(Jesus being the exact expression of God's essence), it didn't matter which one did the speaking. Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father," and "The Father and I are ONE". I think that ONE is the answer to the problem. I don't think Jesus means "one Person" as in modalism, but totally united in every intention, desire, purpose, etc. For this reason, it doesn't matter which of the Two speak. For each will speak the same thing as the Other anyway. The Father could say, "Besides me there is no God". The Son could say, "Besides me there is no God." From our standpoint this seems a contradiction if they are two individuals. For we would think of them as two Gods. But I think from their point of view they are not two Gods, but One.

I'll try another analogy (and hopefully have better success). I have my picture taken. I have in a folder two prints made of the picture. I tell you, "I want to show you a picture of me" and I take out one of the prints and show you. Then I say, "Now I want to show you another picture of me." I take out the second print and show you. You look at me strangely and remark:

"That's the same picture!"

I reply, "No, that's not the same picture. It's a different one." I hold up the first. "Here's one picure of me" and holding up the second I say, "And here's the other!"

Now who is right? Are they the same picture or two different pictures?
It's all the way you look at it. The fact that they are exactly alike led you to remark "That's the same picture!" Your remark is valid.

If we really understand that Jesus is "the exact expression of His essence" or as some translate it "bears the very stamp of His nature", we can understand how He and His Father are one, and yet two. We can understand how, in one sense, they are one God, and in another sense they are two Gods.
I would like to point out that the verse following (vs 11) contains a similar difficulty:

I am God; and beside me there is no Saviour.

If there is only one "He" to God, then how can there be no Saviour besides God? Isn't the Lord Jesus Christ a Saviour? He is called so throughout the New Testament.

Before I attempt to explain the passage you quoted, I'd like to know your explanation of the verse I quoted. I am thinking that the true explanation of either of these, is also the explanation for the other
.

There are indeed other saviours. Yahweh raised up saviours for Israel (Judges 3:9, Nehemiah 9:27). Yahweh raised up Yeshua, the greatest of all saviours. But Yahweh Elohim, He is the ultimate Saviour from Whom all other saviours get their authority from.

Likewise, there are many gods. There are the gods of the pagans (chemosh, baal, ashtoreth). Rulers and judges are also called gods (e.g. Psalm 82/ John 10). But Yahweh alone, He, He, is the one and only true and ultimate, God.
I agree that the Father raised up many saviours for Israel and also raised up Jesus, the greatest of them all, and that all of these saviours get their authority from Him. I also agree the Father alone is the only true God (Jesus said so in His prayer). Yet, I insist that both the Father and the Son share the NAME (Yahweh). Genesis 19:24 speaks of two, each of whom is called "Yahweh", one one earth, and one in heaven.

So, even though the Father is "the only true God", Jesus is also God in essence, since He was begotten by the only true God. There may be many whom men call gods, there are only two who can properly be called "God" ---- the Father and the Son.

I know you can reply that when Paul spoke of "one God" he referred to the Father alone. And that is true. When Paul spoke of "one God" he had in mind the one "true God" who is the Father alone.

I am sure that some who read this will think that I am trying to maintain two contradictory positions, one as applying "true God" to the Father alone, and the other as applying "God" to both the Father and the Son. These two positions are not contradictory to my mind. But it seems that I am having difficulty in showing clearly that they are harmonious concepts.

In any case, I believe that both concepts are set forth explicitly in the Bible.
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Tue May 15, 2007 11:53 am

Hello, Paidion,

[emphases added below]
Paidion: It was always Yahweh the Father, or Yahweh the Son, who spoke to people. But in their case, since they were and are exactly alike(Jesus being the exact expression of God's essence), it didn't matter which one did the speaking. Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father," and "The Father and I are ONE". I think that ONE is the answer to the problem. I don't think Jesus means "one Person" as in modalism, but totally united in every intention, desire, purpose, etc. For this reason, it doesn't matter which of the Two speak. For each will speak the same thing as the Other anyway.
Matthew: And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

Luke: saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”
========================
Paidion: The Father could say, "Besides me there is no God". The Son could say, "Besides me there is no God." From our standpoint this seems a contradiction if they are two individuals. For we would think of them as two Gods. But I think from their point of view they are not two Gods, but One.
John: "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

========================
Paidion: If we really understand that Jesus is "the exact expression of His essence" or as some translate it "bears the very stamp of His nature", we can understand how He and His Father are one, and yet two. We can understand how, in one sense, they are one God, and in another sense they are two Gods.
John: Jesus wept.
OK - I took that one out of context :wink: .

========================

I'll also throw this one out there, if it hasn't been dealt with yet....
Paul: For “[God] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Shlamaa,
Emmet
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Tue May 15, 2007 12:53 pm

Hello, Paidion,
I also agree the Father alone is the only true God (Jesus said so in His prayer).
Oops - so if I'd paid more attention, I'd have been aware that you're aware of that verse :oops: .

Yet, I insist that both the Father and the Son share the NAME (Yahweh). Genesis 19:24 speaks of two, each of whom is called "Yahweh", one one earth, and one in heaven.
One may make a case for the shared name from the New Testament. However, in light of the Hebrew bible, this may not be a matter of shared ontology, but rather of formal adoption. As you probably are well aware, some Ancient Near Eastern/Mediterranean cultures ascribed divine parentage to their kings. Israel did not syncretize to this wholesale, but it did embrace the notion of adoptive parentage for the king (q.v., 2 Samuel 7:14; I Chronicles 17:13; 22:10; 28:6; Psalm 2:7).

The verse you have cited from Genesis 19 is chronically overblown; there is no need to derive any theological significance from the dual mention of the divine name.

I am sure that some who read this will think that I am trying to maintain two contradictory positions, one as applying "true God" to the Father alone, and the other as applying "God" to both the Father and the Son. These two positions are not contradictory to my mind. But it seems that I am having difficulty in showing clearly that they are harmonious concepts.
If the Father is "the only true God," then it appears that we already have a word for any other "God": "idol."

In any case, I believe that both concepts are set forth explicitly in the Bible.
This may be. If so, sounds like there's a problem with the bible.


Shlamaa,
Emmet
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue May 15, 2007 1:25 pm

I am sure that some who read this will think that I am trying to maintain two contradictory positions, one as applying "true God" to the Father alone, and the other as applying "God" to both the Father and the Son. These two positions are not contradictory to my mind. But it seems that I am having difficulty in showing clearly that they are harmonious concepts.


If the Father is "the only true God," then it appears that we already have a word for any other "God": "idol."



Paidion, Since two God's do contradict one God, do you think Jesus's diety could be a manifestation of Yahweh's divinity?
Another words, Jesus is diety but it's his Father's diety in him, given to him freely by his Father. What do you think?
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