what did Jesus "remember?"

Post by **_TK** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:16 am

I was listening to Steve G explain the "kenosis"-- i.e. the emptying of the attributes of majesty when Jesus was incarnated. this brought to mind a question-- did Jesus "remember" his existence prior to the incarnation? or was the slate "wiped clean" at the time of the incarnation?

TK

Post by **_Steve** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:45 am

My guess would be that He remembered nothing initially (that is, in His infancy and childhood) about any pre-existence. My impression is that He received revelation over time from His Father (Luke 2:52), as to who He was.

Thus, by the time He was twelve, we know that He was cognizant of a special relationship that He bore to the Father (Luke 2:49). Whether this took the form of a "memory" of His prior existence, or was a fresh revelation altogether, I don't think we can say.

In His prayer of John 17, He seems to speak of the glory He once shared with His Father as though He could remember it (John 17:5), but I don't want to read more into His words than He intended.

Post by **_TK** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:07 pm

long ago i once heard a sermon where the speaker was making the point was that one of the reasons the cross caused such spiritual agony for Jesus is that this was the first time (in all eternity) that fellowship was broken with the Father. i thought that sounded really good and it had some impact on me.

of course, if Jesus didnt "remember" his previous glory in heaven with the Father, it sort of puts a damper on that theory.

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:35 pm

long ago i once heard a sermon where the speaker was making the point was that one of the reasons the cross caused such spiritual agony for Jesus is that this was the first time (in all eternity) that fellowship was broken with the Father. i thought that sounded really good and it had some impact on me

I thought the reason Jesus said "My God, My God why have you forsaken me" was he was saying it as mankind's representative sort of saying it in mankind's place. Plus he was quoting Psalm 22.

Post by **_TK** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:01 pm

hi steve7150--

i agree that what you said CAN be an interpretation; but i seems the most common interpretation that I have heard in evangelical circles is that at that moment the Father was "turning his back" on Jesus, because he had beome sin for us, and God cannot tolerate the presence of sin. thus jesus was in fact forsaken by the Father.

of course, your interpretation may be correct too.

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:09 pm

and God cannot tolerate the presence of sin. thus jesus was in fact forsaken by the Father.

Hi TK, If God can't tolerate the presence of sin how did he walk near Adam in the garden after Adam sinned or how did he talk to Cain or meet with Satan in the book of Job?

Post by **_TK** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:15 pm

good question-- i dont know the answer. but i've heard about 5 million times that the reason jesus needed to die for us is because a Holy God cannot tolerate sin. thus we cant get into heaven with sin "on us." i certainly believe this is true.

it seems possible that while jesus was taking the sins of the world upon himself ( i believe this is literally true, although i dont profess to understand exactly how this worked) that for the first time he was "out of fellowship" with the Father. for Jesus, who experienced intimate fellowship with the father for all eternity, this would be quite agonizing. don't you think?

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:46 am

it seems possible that while jesus was taking the sins of the world upon himself ( i believe this is literally true, although i dont profess to understand exactly how this worked) that for the first time he was "out of fellowship" with the Father. for Jesus, who experienced intimate fellowship with the father for all eternity, this would be quite agonizing. don't you think?

You might be right but my understanding is a little different. Even though Paul said "he became sin for us" i think Isaiah said he would be a sin offering for us therefore Paul MAY have been speaking figuratively. If he was a sin offering instead of becoming sin then maybe he was'nt out of fellowship and then my interpretation may be correct but you may be correct, i'm not sure.

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:39 am

Let's not assume that the Greek word "anaphero" often translated as "bore" makes the phrase "bore our sins" means "took our sins upon Him" as we have been taught.

The "ana" part of the Greek verb means "up" and the "phero"
part means "bear" in the sense of "carry".

Let's consider the uses of this Greek verb in the New Testament. As you can see below, the NASB has translated it in many different ways, depending upon the context. The word(s) in red are translations of the verb "anaphero".

Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.

Mark 9:2 Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them;

Hebrews 7:27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

In this verse, the words "having been offered up" come from a related Greek word "prosphero" This literally means "carry toward" rather than "carry up."

Hebrews 13:15 Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

1 Peter 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Do these passages suggest that Jesus may have "offered up" our sins to God while He was on the cross? Might this suggest something other than substitutionary atonement?

Another possibility is that Jesus "bore" the sins of those who put Him to death in the sense of "enduring" those sins.

I do not believe that the Father forsook Jesus while He was on the cross. I believe Jesus, as a true human being, felt forsaken by His Father, because of all that He was enduring ---- physically, mentally, and spiritually.