Is anybody else a little weary of this...?

[Guest]

I can't help but think of the Jesus Movement while reading these posts. Those kids were saved out of the hippie culture which was kind of the same rebellious thing. They (judging from pictures) kept their long hair and general "hippy" looks. However, to my knowledge, they were saved "out of it" and went back into "it" loudly and boldly proclaiming the gospel and seeing multitudes saved as a result. Not merely hanging out with people who were doing the real hippy stuff and trying to "be light" by just being around them.

They did however, adopt the style of music they liked to their new lives. There seems to be some similarities.

Steve was there, so I think his insight would be most helpful here.

[Guest]

I think, in response to the question "can a disciple of Christ be in the heavy metal culture?,or the murderous vidieo game culture?, or the hip hop culture?.. the answer is yes, but, if there is sin involved (if the person is truely a new creation) I believe that the Lord will lead them into all truth by His Holy Spirit. I answer this very subjectively cause that is what happened to me about 19 years ago only it was not quite the same culture that the Lord gently drew me out of. He did draw me out of it though and all that came with it. I think of people like Alice Cooper, who years ago became a Christian and didn't tell anyone publicly cause he wanted it to show that he had changed. I believe that he was still making rock and roll during those years but I would like to think that he was really saved and just practicing his trade. Same with Dave Mustane from Megadeth, he has apparently become a Christian and he is still making music. I guess the big thing to gage it by would be do they participate in the drugs and sex and anti-Christ behavior. Maybe a better Question is do I still practice anti-Christ behaviors in my job as an aircraft mechanic since the time I was saved? I hope that everyday P.O.D. and Alice Cooper, and Dave Mustane and Tom(me) gets more and more like Christ no matter where I work or do ministry or just hang out.
Titus 2:11-13
God Bless
[/b][/u]

[Guest]

Amen Derek and Tom. Now, TK, go sit in your barcalounger and drink your prune juice!

[Guest]

Seriously though, TK,

can a disciple of christ be into heavy metal culture? or murderous video game culture? or hip hop culture?

What exactly is "murderous video game culture" and where do I find it?

Should a Christian be playing, making or promoting murderous video games? No. Should a Christian be taking, selling or promoting drugs? No. Should a Christian be engaging in or promoting illicit sex? No. Should a Christian play a particular genre of music? Sure. Should a Christian sing lyrics that promote sin or dishonor God? No. Should a Christian dress in a way that is relevent to their culture, as long as it's not immodest or offensive? Sure.

You and I dress and wear our hair in a way that is relevent to our culture. A middle-aged male professional who wears a suit to the office and is well-groomed is dressing in a way that corresponds to his culture. Just because he wears a suit and works in an office doesn't mean he's engaging in corporate malfeaseance ala Enron does it? Neither is a kid who dresses in hiphop style or heavy metal style or goth style etc., necessarily participating in sex, drugs, satanism, etc. In fact, whether or not they're participating in those activities probably has more to do with their homelife than the music they listen to.

[Guest]

Should a Christian dress in a way that is relevent to their culture, as long as it's not immodest or offensive? Sure.

You and I dress and wear our hair in a way that is relevent to our culture. A middle-aged male professional who wears a suit to the office and is well-groomed is dressing in a way that corresponds to his culture. Just because he wears a suit and works in an office doesn't mean he's engaging in corporate malfeaseance ala Enron does it? Neither is a kid who dresses in hiphop style or heavy metal style or goth style etc., necessarily participating in sex, drugs, satanism, etc. In fact, whether or not they're participating in those activities probably has more to do with their homelife than the music they listen to.

As Christians, we are called to be a "set apart" and "a peculiar people". I know this primarily deals with our attitudes, our values, and our minds. But if we "conform not" to the world on the inside, don't you think it will show on the outside?

Just a thought...

[Guest]

I came out of the 60's and not raised in a christian home but rather
a very liberal one....When I was saved I was so glad to get boundaries
and quickly move away from anything that appeared "worldly" esp.
with music. My son is in a rock band (ish) raised a christian tho'
obviously not walking the path, and I dont say much anymore but
I do pray.

Why is it that this generation of christians just want to hang on to a
little of the world? I disagree with christian rock! Just my opinion.

[Guest]

Why is it that this generation of christians just want to hang on to a little of the world? I disagree with christian rock! Just my opinion.

Our society craves a painless, care-free Christianity, which Satan readily feeds them. One which doesn't hurt anyone's feelings. The Christianity of antiquity which had once shone so brightly in the days of the martyrs – is now rapidly being lost, for the true character of Christians, as strangers and pilgrims, had gone in the fatal amalgamation with the world. We are plagued with this false representation all around us.

"First, an advance in fullness and clearness of revelation; then gradual spirit declension; then conformity to the world, ending with amalgamation with the world; then a gigantic civilization, brilliant but godless; then parallel development of evil and good; then an APOSTASY, and finally a CATASTROPHE." - Dr A. T. Pierson

[Guest]

As Christians, we are called to be a "set apart" and "a peculiar people". I know this primarily deals with our attitudes, our values, and our minds. But if we "conform not" to the world on the inside, don't you think it will show on the outside?

Yes, it will. In our good works and righteousness.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

However, I'm hesitant to equate Christ-like behaviour in having one's outward appearance (hair, clothes, tattoos) match a certain culture or in playing only certain types of music. The good news of Christ transcends all that.

Remember, Paul got in trouble with certain Jewish believers because he understood and taught that certain Jewish cultural norms needn't be forced on Gentiles (ie. Kosher foods, circumcision, the Sabbath). Today, in the 21st century, we are grateful for his stand, yet we sometimes want to force our cultural norms on believers in another culture.

Throughout history, Christians haven't expected other cultures to assimilate into their own or even to "clean up" before taking the Gospel to them. Christians invaded a culture with the good news of Christ. When individuals turned to Jesus, the process of sanctification removed the parts of the culture that were evil and redeemed the parts that amoral. While only God knows the hearts, I would suspect that POD is invading a culture with the message of Christ. While it may feel "messy" and different than many of us are used to, Praise God(!!) that they have the love of Christ and the courage to do so. May God motivate us all in the same way.

Our society craves a painless, care-free Christianity, which Satan readily feeds them. One which doesn't hurt anyone's feelings. The Christianity of antiquity which had once shone so brightly in the days of the martyrs – is now rapidly being lost, for the true character of Christians, as strangers and pilgrims, had gone in the fatal amalgamation with the world. We are plagued with this false representation all around us.

Agreed. But the attitude of being "...strangers and pilgrims..." is in regard to who is our Lord, not which culture we live in.

Dave

[Guest]

Hi Loaves,

I’ve been traveling the last couple of days, but finally have a little time to respond to your posts. So here goes…

P.O.D. doesn't just look different, they undermine the very essense of Christianity: Christ.

This is a very serious charge to be making against your brothers in Christ. I would be quite a bit less cavalier, if I were you, about calling unclean what God has made clean. If you stand by these accusations, then I would challenge you to provide some proof or strong evidence of them (not just additional accusations).

They distrort and pervert our Lord and Saviour by promoting and praising anti-Christ, blasphemous and filthy rock performers, such as Marilyn Manson. Manson, an officially, ordained "reverend" in the Church of Satan, mutilates himself on stage…

Again, serious accusations against your brothers in Christ.

Perhaps you are expecting P.O.D. to act like a Christian band that only does concerts with other Christian bands for (mostly) Christian audiences and never interacts with the lost?

Keep in mind, P.O.D. (or any band at their level) is a business. It is their career. They have to choose whether to limit their career to being wholesome entertainment for Christian teens or interact with the world at large and (hopefully) be a Christian witness in an often hostile environment. The latter strikes me as being more missional in nature. Wouldn't it be great if all of us could be more missional in our careers?

Let’s say you and I started a coffee shop business. We want it to be like Starbucks, only reflect our Christian convictions. We could make it a “Christian” coffee shop, which only serves other Christians, only employs Christians, only advertises on Christian radio and in Christian magazines, only buys supplies from Christian suppliers and, of course, only purchases our coffee beans from Christian farmers. Oh, and we would be closed on Sunday.

Or, we could open a coffee shop that welcomes everyone. We could hire non-Christian employees – perhaps even homeless or troubled youth who might benefit from a job where they could be loved on by believers. We could try to attract customers from all walks of life, hoping to have opportunities to reflect Christ to them. We could work with non-Christian suppliers and be a positive witness to them by treating them exceptionally well and paying our bills promptly. We could purchase “fair-trade” coffee beans and see to it that some of our profits went back to help the communities of the farmers.

In other words, we could build a Christian ghetto or be actively involved in the lives of non-believers. We could be insular or missional. We could be exclusive or inclusive. The former is always easier. The latter is more challenging and runs the risk of being accused by fellow Christians of being “worldly” (or worse).

That is much different than people who simply "look" different than we do. We are to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them, in Christian love. This is the way of the Cross.

I’m having trouble seeing the “Christian love” in your comments thus far. Go read 1 Corinthians 13 for a good description of love. Love covers a multitude of sins. Love does not accuse. Love seeks to build up, not tear down. I really worry about people like Terry Watkins of Dial-the-Truth Ministries (who runs that web site you keep referencing) who seem to base their entire ministry on tearing down other Christians because they don’t match up to their (often misguided) standards. It’s mean spirited. And to be an accuser of the brethren is not a characteristic I would want to possess (considering who the Bible refers to as the “accuser of the brethren”).

Paul’s statement in Ephesians about having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness has to do (if read in context) with our own behaviors. It does not mean “don’t interact with anyone who is in darkness”. If it did, we might as well bring all the missionaries home. Quite the contrary, we are called to bring the light of the love of Christ to those in darkness. You can’t do that from behind the safe walls of a Christian ghetto.

Concerning tatoos, Jesus would be sinning if He had one; while living as a Jewish man that is.

"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." - Lev. 19:27

Further your reference to Rev. 19:16, "written" is a far cry from a tatoo. Now, we aren't under Levitical law, but I was just making another point. Perhaps the principle still applies.

So, I’m confused here. Does the Levitical law apply or not? Leviticus 19 also says (in verse 19), “Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.” Do you keep this law? Verse 28 of Leviticus 19 (just before the “tattoo” verse that you cited) says, “Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.” Have you broken this law? By the way, the scripture references I’m using are from the NIV or, as Terry Watkins from Dial-the-Truth Ministries calls it, “The New International PERVersion” ( http://www.pb.org/npbdocs/niv.html ).

Loaves, I beg you. Avoid that guy and his website. He’s a whack-job. And I say that in Christian love.

Actually, this thread has inspired me to consider getting another tattoo. Here’s what I’m thinking about having put on my arm:

As Christians, we are called to be a "set apart" and "a peculiar people". I know this primarily deals with our attitudes, our values, and our minds. But if we "conform not" to the world on the inside, don't you think it will show on the outside?

Well, you just said it yourself. It deals with our attitudes, values and minds. As Dave so eloquently stated, it’s our good works and righteousness that will make us stand out. As our Lord said, “They will know you by your love for one another.”

Beyond scripture, who decides what is and isn’t “conforming to the world”? Is it you? Me? Terry Watkins from Dial-the-Truth Ministries? Is hair below the collar “conforming”? Is having an earring? Playing a distorted guitar? Using drums? Who draws the lines? We can’t. These are subjective matters.

Our society craves a painless, care-free Christianity, which Satan readily feeds them. One which doesn't hurt anyone's feelings. The Christianity of antiquity which had once shone so brightly in the days of the martyrs – is now rapidly being lost, for the true character of Christians, as strangers and pilgrims, had gone in the fatal amalgamation with the world. We are plagued with this false representation all around us.

This sounds familiar. Oh yes, Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church said something very similar. So did Charles Russell, the founder of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

It’s so easy to bash. Not so easy to build.

[Guest]

Matthew 7:1

Many people dont want to criticize or be criticized, but the fact is
that judgement has it's proper place. There are two kinds of judgement:
discernment and sentencing. The former appropriate within guidelines
the latter out of bounds!

Discernment should be exercised only when it might produce a positive effect. "Do not throw your pearls before swine." Matt. 7:6.
Jesus would not perform miracles to satisfy Herod's musings. Luke 23:8-9.

So rather than judging as hypocrites ( as people with logs in our own eyes) our discernement should serve the common good by being
consistant with God's standard of behavior.

I dont judge by the outward look BUT somehow my standard changes
when it affects my children, I just hope they will come up to a higher
standard. My son has tattos (sp) I love him the same but hope he realizes
they are there forever.