Hierarchy of the Trinity???

Post by **_AARONDISNEY** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:02 am

Now this is something that is probably not going to be mashed out completely but some verses seem to indicate a hierarchy of the Trinity. Some seem to indicate equality.

The Father is greater...
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
(KJV)

They are equal..........

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)

John 5:18
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
(KJV)

It is also common to call The Father the first person of the Trinity, the Son - the Second Person, and the Holy Ghost the Third Person...kind of indicating rank (seemingly) though it is not in the Scriptures called first, second and third unless you consider this verse to indicate such:

I Jn 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(KJV)

Any thoughts? Is there a hierarchy?

Post by **_TK** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:54 am

a side-question to help me understand-- in your opinion does the risen Son "submit" to the Father? the reason that i ask this is that the term "submission" implies a potential conflict of wills. or is the Son in perfect unity in will with the Father?

my initial thoughts is that they are co-equal, but i have a feeling that Paidion will bring up the fact that the Son was "begotten" of the Father.

TK

Post by **_AARONDISNEY** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:57 am

True, TK. The Son learned obedience to the Father by the things which He suffered. Understanding that in his flesh he did not always want to do the Father's will, but in his spirit he knew He must. That was a suffering he went through. So I can see that in His humanity he was in subjection to the Father.

But in essence I see it as you that He is and always was equal to the Father. That they are one.

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:12 pm

I Jn 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(KJV)

This is not found in any early manuscripts but makes it's way into the text around the 1500's as it is an interpolation!

Post by **_TK** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:37 pm

i guess i feel that the Son may be submissive to the Father in his role, but not in His position. The HS is said to proceed from the Father and the Son. but again i would say this would be a submissiveness in role only, not position.

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:27 pm

The Father is greater...
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
(KJV)

They are equal..........

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)

The Father is greater positionally. The Son always was and always shall be subject to the Father.

They are equal essentially. Both are equally divine.
I don't think the statement, "I and my Father ar one" indicates their divine equality as much as it indicates their divine unity.