Baptism - Is the Text of Matt. 28:19 Original?

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_Evangelion
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Post by _Evangelion » Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:19 am

Paidion wrote:Quote from Evangelion:
How do you account for its appearance in the Didache and the various texts from early Church Fathers such as Iganatius and Cyprian (who quotes it pefectly, along with the entire verse as we have it today)?
An excellent question, Evangelion! And one that requires an answer from anyone tending to believe that the so-called "Trinitarian formula" of baptism found in Matthew 28 was added to the text of Matthew at a later date.

The earliest post-biblical Christian writers were the apostle Paul's fellow-labourer, Clement [A.D. 30-100] and his contemporary Ignatius [A.D. 30-107]. As you are probably aware, there is extant a shorter and a longer recension of the main writings purporting to be those of Ignatius. The quote "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" is found only in the longer recension. Most experts consider the shorter one as more likely
to be what Ignatius actually wrote. Other experts believe that we do not possess any genuine writings of Ignatius today.

The "writings of Ignatius" which we possess today, uphold the elder-overseer distinction, a distinction which was not made by Paul, Peter, or any of the other apostles. In his letters to the churches, the writer recommended regarding that the believers regard the overseer (or "bishop") as they would regard Jesus Christ Himself. This does not seem characteristic of the first-century apostolic practice.
Yes, the Ignatian epistles are a contentious subject and have been badly abused (both by those who interpolated them and those who quote from them today.)

The question of his views on the role of the bishop is not easily resolved, since the matter turns largely upon the nature of the translation. Ignatius can be made to sound more or less Catholic (I use this word in the denominational sense) depending on the way in which his instructions are rendered by the translator.

Remember that even Paul himself once wrote "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

It is possible to read a wealth of significance into this statement, should one be so inclined - and the statement itself is very similar (both in content and very different to the one ascribed to Ignatius in the Epistle to the Smyrnaeans:
  • All of you follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; respect the deacons as the ordinance of God.
See also the Epistle to the Trallians:
  • For when ye are subject unto the bishop as unto Jesus Christ, ye appear unto me not to live according to man, but according to Jesus Christ who died for us, that ye, by believing on his death, might escape death.

    It is necessary, therefore, that ye should do nothing without the bishop, as indeed ye do, and that ye should submit yourselves to the presbytery also, as to the Apostles of Jesus Christ, our hope, in whom we shall be found walking.

    [...]

    In like manner, let all men reverence the deacons, and the bishop likewise, even as Jesus Christ who is the Son of the Father; and the presbyters as the council of God, and as the bond of the Apostles. Without these there is no Church;
In this translation (by C. H. Hoole) the reference to the bishops and deacons appears less as a commandment, and more as a recommendation. The first clause, indeed ("...when ye are subject unto the bishop as unto Jesus Christ") is merely a statement about the benefits of obedience to the leaders of the church. It does not actually define the role of the bishop, nor does it place him on the same level of Christ.

Of course, this presupposes that the passages above are a legitimate part of the text - which they may not be.

I personally take the view that Ignatius' ecclesiology was consistent with (though not identical to) that of the Didache, comprising a two-tiered system of management within the church (ie. first bishops, then deacons and presbyters.)

This may not be absolutely identical to Paul's model - but that is irrelevant. It doesn't need to be identical, because Ignatius is writing at a later period in which the church has already grown much larger and now requires a more sophisticated model of government.

IMHO, the bottom line is that Ignatius' ecclesiology contains no theological implications that might put it at odds with the apostolic model.
Third-century Cyprian lived in a day when Trinintarian thinking was common in the church, although the dogma was not universally accepted.
His contemporary, Novatian, wrote an article about the Trinity.
None of this in any way suggests that Matthew 28:19 is interpolated. In fact, since Cyprian quotes the entire verse in the form that we have it today (and references it as a quote), we can be sure that the verse existed in that form at an earlier date.
The didache certainly gives evidence of having been written at a very early date. Yet, some of the advice given therein seems to be ritualistic ---- again not characteristic of age. Perhaps portions of the didache were also interpolated by later writers. Some of these later writers were unscrupulous in their practice of adding their ideas to Christian texts in order to make them appear to have validity.
The Didache shows no sign of later interpolation. If such a thing had been done, there would be evidence of it in the form of doctrinal elaboration, and "updating" to reflect the newer theology.

The ritualism is very characteristic of age, since it reflects an earlier period in which ritual - particularly Jewish ritual - was common. For example, it speaks of prayer three times a day, and we know from the book of Acts that some of the early Christians did indeed pray three times a day (see the story of Peter and Cornelius.)
Tertullian [A.D. 145-200] was at some point a Montanist for a period of time. This sect was later declared a "heresy" by the main church. Tertullian held to a sort of proto-type of the Trinitarianism that later developed. He was the first known to use the word "Trinity" in a writing. Indeed, it may have been he who initially copied the "Trinitarian Formula" into Matthew 28.
I am aware that Tertullian fell away into heresy. However, his heresy had nothing to do with Trinitarianism and there is no record (let alone evidence) of Tertullian tampering with the Greek texts - which would have been unlikely, since he wrote and spoke in Latin.
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:17 pm

Thank you for your response, Evagelion. Much of what you have written makes sense. I did wonder, however about the following statement:
This may not be absolutely identical to Paul's model - but that is irrelevant. It doesn't need to be identical, because Ignatius is writing at a later period in which the church has already grown much larger and now requires a more sophisticated model of government.
It couldn't have been too much later, since Ignatius died around 107 A.D.
In any case, the matter of whether or not elders and overseers ("bishops") are identical, seems to me of some importance. Also, whether or not there were a plurality of overseers in a single church.

If we are willing to accept the adaptation of early church practice according to changing circumstances, it seems to me we will end up being a different kind of "church". This will result in hundreds of sects all differing in belief and practice. This is indeed the case in our day. Perhaps you are comfortable with denominationalism and sectarianism, regarding them as merely variant expressions of the Church of Christ. I must affirm that I do not so regard them. I think they would be better described as man-made clubs than churches. I think a church that models itself upon the apostolic model is a better expression of the true Church than those who do and believe things their own way. The latter were called "heresies" in the early church.

The way our present "writings of Ignatius" describe the role of overseers (bishops) is more characteristic of the later practice of the church which gradually evolved into Catholicism, than it is of the apostolic church of the first century.
None of this in any way suggests that Matthew 28:19 is interpolated. In fact, since Cyprian quotes the entire verse in the form that we have it today (and references it as a quote), we can be sure that the verse existed in that form at an earlier date.
That is true. But if the verse had been interpolated and existed at an earlier date, and if Cyprian were indeed Trinitarian, of course he would quote the Trinitarian reading. On the other hand, the fourth-century Eusebius, who was not a Trinitarian, in his partial quotation of the verse, possibly quoted that portion in its original form.
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Post by _Royal Oddball 2:9 » Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:11 am

What a great discussion, gentlemen! I apologize for being absent so long, but I tend to "disappear" from my computer on the weekends. :D
Evangelion wrote:Yeah, but what I want to know is how they arrive at their position in the first place. What is their Scriptural basis?
Evangelion, I'm sure you realize that Oneness doctrine is not based on the Trinity (although having fellowshipped in both camps, I've observed the doctrines are very, very similar, mainly differing in semantics.)

Therefore, Oneness interpretation of the text deduced that Jesus is the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so they baptize in Jesus name, thus fulfilling Peter's instructions in Acts 2:38 and Paul's comments in 1 Corinthians 6:11, Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27, as well as satisfying apostolic precedence every time an authority is mentioned in relation to baptism. If that's not a sufficient scriptural basis for you, you may wish to converse with someone who is better studied in this doctrine.

A better question to ask might be when and why the baptism of the apostles was changed from Jesus Christ to Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
Paidon wrote: Personally, I am inclined to think it was indeed a later addition placed their to support trinitarianism.
This is what I believe as well, although it should be noted that I have no quarrel with the doctrine of the Trinity, although I am aware of its weaknesses.
Evangelion wrote:"Most scholars"? I think you will find that "most scholars" are simply divided on the date. Some favour the 2nd Century; others favour the 1st. In my experience, those who favour the 1st outnumber those who favour the 2nd.
Well, as my mentor always says, for every expert there's always an equal and opposite expert. For us "laypeople" who don't have the luxury of Bible college or spending a lifetime studying dusty documents, we can only "pick the side" that makes the most sense to us and be sensitive to the reasons why others pick the other side.
Evangelion wrote:That is impossible, since the Didache quotes from Christ's Sermon on the Mount.

So unless people want to suggest that someone wrote down a few scraps of the Sermon on the Mount and Matthew copied them into his Gospel, it seems pretty clear that Matthew pre-dated the Didache.
As I've stated earlier, I'm not well-studied in the origins of the Didache. I know just enough to be dangerous! However, I did find the following in one of my resources, and it makes reasonable sense to me:

"A particularly striking feature of the Didache is the amount of material it shares with Matthew's Gospel. For many scholars this factor, combined with the Didache's four references to 'the gospel', has been taken as showing that the Didache was written with knowledge of that Gospel. If Matthew may be dated to AD 80-100, then the Didache cannot be an especially early text.

The flaw in this logic is a failure to take into account another feature of the Didache that is all but universally recognised by scholars; the Didache wasn't written by one person at one time. This factor, combined with the numerous Matthean parallels, creates a puzzle. Is it likely that similarities to Matthew's Gospel were inserted at several stages in the Didache's development? This would require an extraordinary string of coincidences - especially given that the parallel material is almost always unique to these two texts. It is much more likely, therefore, that Matthew found the Didache at a late stage in its development and combined material from its various elements with traditions from other sources."
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