Something I have Noticed

[steve]

Steve7150 wrote:

OK so you do your time in prison but as i understand it, you can't actually pay for your sins yourself, so eventually doesn't this person still need forgiveness?

As I understand it, no court both forgives and punishes a criminal. It is generally one or the other. Being sent to hell would only be the fate of one not forgiven. However, a criminal who is not forgiven, and who is punished in prison, may yet emerge a free man, either because he has served his sentence or because he is deemed no longer a threat to society, due to changes in his character. One might refer to the latter as forgiveness, or not, depending on one's view of the applicability of that term to one who has served hard time.

I don't know if it is possible for a man in hell to pay off his penalty, or to repent and be released. The Bible is silent on both. Silence, however, is not denial.

Even if a man who repented in hell were to be "forgiven" at that point, it might not be that hell's punishment would fall within the range of Jesus' expression "this age, or the age to come." Notwithstanding robbyyoung's denial, I find no reason to deny that Jesus and Paul anticipated "ages" to come (see below).

Robbyyoung wrote:

in Eph 2:7, he used the greek word "aiōn" as well, but there is no justification for the translation to be plural.

I am no Greek scholar, but in checking several translations (including NASB, ESV, Young's Literal, New King James, some lesser-known ones, and two interlinears) I have yet to find any that agrees with you here. What is your reason for saying aiosi is not plural? And why do you suppose that none of the translators knew of your reasons?

In my opinion, there were at least two (if not more) "ages to come" besides the one in which Jesus was living and speaking. "This age" would naturally refer to that prior to Pentecost, whereas "the age to come" would probably be post-Pentecost. I assume there would be at least one additional age, following the final judgment. How many there may be, we have no way of knowing. To identify "the age to come" with something endless seems arbitrary to me.

[Paidion]

In Eph. 2:7, the Greek word "αιωσιν" (aiōsin) is, in fact, the masculine, dative plural of the word "αιων" (aiōn).

[robbyyoung]

Steve & Paidion,

Thanks for the correction, I was wrong on the greek. I'm also going to yield on commenting any further in regards to the "eons" ahead of us. A study of the "eons", as portrayed in scripture, is definitely needed on my end.

God Bless!

[steve]

Robby,

It is refreshing to have someone take this approach when corrected. I admire you, and wish we could see more of that from others whose misstatements have been corrected. God bless you!

[robbyyoung]

Robby,

It is refreshing to have someone take this approach when corrected. I admire you, and wish we could see more of that from others whose misstatements have been corrected. God bless you!

No worries Steve, after all, aren't we all zealous to come as close as possible to the knowledge of the truth? I commend all you great brothers for the decades of work and study concerning the scriptures. On my preliminary overview of the greek words used to describe "the age or ages" I see that the word aiōnios, is properly translated "Age Abiding or Age During". This is very interesting, for if we mistranslate with the word eternal or forever, we will totally miss the impact of the context. For example, take Rom 16:26 - God is an "Age Abiding God" or Rev 14:6 - "the angel having the Age Abiding Gospel", from Rev 14:6 we can argue that the Gospel is set in an established time frame or age. Is it really eternal?

Also, let's go back to Eph 2:7, Paul refers to "us", the 1st century believers, that in the "ages to comes" they will witness Christ's blessings. What ages? Well the age that was at their door was the New Covenant Age. Does scripture inform us or give title to ensuing ages? Very interesting indeed and worth the pondering and study.

[steve]

Hi robby,

Something can be age-abiding and also be endless (God, for instance), but age-abiding does not, in itself mean endless. Something that is age-abiding may either be long-enduring or eternally-enduring. Depends on the context. For example, when the Bible tells us we have aionios life, the word itself does not require that this is endless life. However, when we have references to immortality and the phrase "shall never die," this adds detail to how long aionios life lasts.

I believe that Paul and his readers were living within the New Covenant age, which was what Jesus (who lived before Pentecost) referred to as "the age to come." It seems clear that Paul anticipated more than one more age ("the ages to come") beyond the one in which he lived. Let me illustrate:

"Age A": From the exodus to Pentecost = the age in which Jesus lived and ministered on earth, which He called "this age";

"Age B": From Pentecost to the Second Coming of Christ = the age in which Paul lived and in which we live, which Jesus called "the age to come";

"Age C": From the Second Coming until ???? = the first of the "ages to come" of which Paul wrote. This is beyond the purview of Jesus' words "neither in this age ["Age A"] nor in the age to come ["Age B']."

By this labeling, Jesus said that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in Ages A or B. He said nothing about Ages C, D, E, F, etc. Since the final judgment takes place at the end of "Age B," and the beginning of "Age C", any rehabilitation or forgiveness that might come to those in hell would be in "Age C" or later. This would seem to make Jesus' words here irrelevant to the question of repentance and forgiveness in hell.

[robbyyoung]

Hi robby,

Something can be age-abiding and also be endless (God, for instance), but age-abiding does not, in itself mean endless. Something that is age-abiding may either be long-enduring or eternally-enduring. Depends on the context. For example, when the Bible tells us we have aionios life, the word itself does not require that this is endless life. However, when we have references to immortality and the phrase "shall never die," this adds detail to how long aionios life lasts.

I believe that Paul and his readers were living within the New Covenant age, which was what Jesus (who lived before Pentecost) referred to as "the age to come." It seems clear that Paul anticipated more than one more age ("the ages to come") beyond the one in which he lived. Let me illustrate:

"Age A": From the exodus to Pentecost = the age in which Jesus lived and ministered on earth, which He called "this age";

"Age B": From Pentecost to the Second Coming of Christ = the age in which Paul lived and in which we live, which Jesus called "the age to come";

"Age C": From the Second Coming until ???? = the first of the "ages to come" of which Paul wrote. This is beyond the purview of Jesus' words "neither in this age ["Age A"] nor in the age to come ["Age B']."

By this labeling, Jesus said that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in Ages A or B. He said nothing about Ages C, D, E, F, etc. Since the final judgment takes place at the end of "Age B," and the beginning of "Age C", any rehabilitation or forgiveness that might come to those in hell would be in "Age C" or later. This would seem to make Jesus' words here irrelevant to the question of repentance and forgiveness in hell.

Oh I absolutely agree that context will denote "age-abiding vs. eternal" and scripture leaves us to our own imaginations in the ensuing ages to come. UR is extremely thought provoking and full of hope! I currently see no disadvantage, to the faith, having confidence in this position. Thanks again for your time and illustrations regarding the issue at hand, they've been very helpful.

[Homer]

But what did "this age" and the "age to come" mean to Jesus who spoke the words concerning blaspheming the Holy Spirit? He seemed to know of only "this age" and that age when speaking of marriage:


Luke 20:34-36, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

34. Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35. but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36. for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


There doesn't appear to be an age A & B in Jesus' mind. This age runs until the resurrection.

[Roberto]

Homer, that's a good challenge. Did Jesus teach that there were only two? Is the 10,000 year reign an age?

[robbyyoung]

But what did "this age" and the "age to come" mean to Jesus who spoke the words concerning blaspheming the Holy Spirit? He seemed to know of only "this age" and that age when speaking of marriage:


Luke 20:34-36, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

34. Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35. but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36. for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


There doesn't appear to be an age A & B in Jesus' mind. This age runs until the resurrection.

Hi Homer,

Consider Luke 1:33, The Angel Gabriel's message - "and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end."

Consider Matthew 6:13, The Lord's Prayer - "'And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation, but deliver us from the evil, because Thine is the reign, and the power, and the glory -- to the ages. Amen."

Jesus not only knows of other future ages, but he himself will reign over them!

God Bless.