Something I have Noticed

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Roberto
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Re: Something I have Noticed

Post by Roberto » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:18 pm

Homer wrote:But what did "this age" and the "age to come" mean to Jesus who spoke the words concerning blaspheming the Holy Spirit? He seemed to know of only "this age" and that age when speaking of marriage:


Luke 20:34-36, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

34. Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35. but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36. for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


There doesn't appear to be an age A & B in Jesus' mind. This age runs until the resurrection.


Jesus does actually say "the age to come" in the NIV.

Roberto
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Re: Something I have Noticed

Post by Roberto » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:21 pm

So, Robby, when Jesus says that the age to come is that in which people have resurrection bodies, is there an age beyond one in which people have resurrected bodies?

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TheEditor
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Re: Something I have Noticed

Post by TheEditor » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:07 pm

Since the word aion can also denote "system" or "arrangement" or "order", perhaps this is the flavor used with reference to Jesus' words on marriage? Perhaps the "aion" that people were worthy of attaining had to do with the "structure" and not necessarily a time element involved.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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robbyyoung
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Re: Something I have Noticed

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:23 pm

Roberto wrote:So, Robby, when Jesus says that the age to come is that in which people have resurrection bodies, is there an age beyond one in which people have resurrected bodies?
Hi Roberto,

Please review the following, Ephesians 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

This covers all the generations of mankind into the future of an indefinite time period (Unspecified number of many ages).

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robbyyoung
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Re: Something I have Noticed

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:27 pm

TheEditor wrote:Since the word aion can also denote "system" or "arrangement" or "order", perhaps this is the flavor used with reference to Jesus' words on marriage? Perhaps the "aion" that people were worthy of attaining had to do with the "structure" and not necessarily a time element involved.

Regards, Brenden.
Hi Brenden,

I'm not aware of this rendering of aion. Please substantiate this.

Roberto
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Re: Something I have Noticed

Post by Roberto » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:31 pm

robbyyoung wrote:
Roberto wrote:So, Robby, when Jesus says that the age to come is that in which people have resurrection bodies, is there an age beyond one in which people have resurrected bodies?
Hi Roberto,

Please review the following, Ephesians 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

This covers all the generations of mankind into the future of an indefinite time period (Unspecified number of many ages).
Hi robby,
That looks like a different question from the one that I asked. What did you come up with- is there another age beyond that of resurrection? Also, I am not sure that your interpretation of the Ephesians passages is the only potential one, or even if the one you posit makes sense. Paul says nothing about the future, does he?

Thank you
R

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robbyyoung
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Re: Something I have Noticed

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:56 pm

Roberto,

You asked if their are ages beyond the resurrection, and I answered you unequivocally with Eph 3:2. All generations of man into the future contained in the abiding ages. For confirmation research the commentaries and the greek and you'll see.

Roberto
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Re: Something I have Noticed

Post by Roberto » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:50 pm

robbyyoung wrote:Roberto,

You asked if their are ages beyond the resurrection, and I answered you unequivocally with Eph 3:2. All generations of man into the future contained in the abiding ages. For confirmation research the commentaries and the greek and you'll see.
How does that show that there are ages *after* the age in which resurrected bodies exist?
Help me out here, I don't get it! Explain it some more, maybe I'll see what you are saying.

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Homer
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Re: Something I have Noticed

Post by Homer » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:36 pm

Seems plain enough when you consider what each of the synoptics say:

Matthew 12:31-32, New American Standard Bible (NASB)
31. “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 3:28-29 (NASB)
28. “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29. but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

Luke 12:10 (NASB)
10. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

No need for all the "this, that, and the other" age (or ages).

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TheEditor
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Re: Something I have Noticed

Post by TheEditor » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:07 am

Hi Robby,

The source I have is RC Trench, and he quotes from some Latin and German scholars. Unfortunately, he uses many Greek and Latin and German words, so I will cut and paste as written, and then I will include his footnotes on the page I am quoting from. The idea that it isn't so much a "time" but a "spirit" or "construct", space age and digital age come to mind. Now the quote:


We must reject the etymology of αἰών which Aristotle (De Coel. i. 9) propounds: ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀεὶ εἶναι εἰληφὼς τὴν ἐπωνυμίαν.Etym. Note. 29 It is more probably connected with ἄω, ἄημι to breathe. Like κόσμος it has a primary and physical, and then, superinduced on this, a secondary and ethical, sense. In its primary, it signifies time, short or long, in its unbroken duration; oftentimes in classical Greek the duration of a human life (== βίος, for which it is exchanged, Xenophon, Cyrop. iii. 3. 24; cf. Plato, Legg. iii. 701 c; Sophocles, Trachin. 2; Elect. 1085: πάγκλαυτον αἰῶνα εἵλου: Pindar, Olymp. ii. 120: ἄδακρυν νέμονται αἰῶνα); but essentially time as the condition under which all created things exist, and the measure of their existence; thus Theodoret: ὁ αἰὼν οὐκ οὐσία τις ἐστίν, ἀλλ᾽ ανυπόστατον χρῆμα, συμπαρομαρτοῦν τοῖς γεννητὴν ἔχουσι φύσιν· καλεῖται γὰρ αἰὼν καὶ τὸ ἀπὸ τῆς τοῦ κόσμου συστάσεως μέχρι τῆς συντελείας διάστημα—αἰὼν τοίνυν ἐστὶ τὸ τῇ κτιστῇ φύσει παρεζευγμένον διάστημα. Thus signifying time, it comes presently to signify all which exists in the world under conditions of time; ‘die Totalität desjenigen was sich in der Dauer der Zeit äusserlich darstellt, die Welt, sofern sie sich in der Zeit bewegt’ (C. L. W. Grimm; thus see Wisd. 13:8; 14:6; 18:4; Eccles. 3:11); and then, more ethically, the course and current of this world’s affairs. But this course and current being full of sin, it is nothing wonderful that αἰὼν οὗτος, set over against ὁ αἰὼν ἐκεὶνος (Luke 20:35), ὁ αἰὼν ἐρχομένος (Mark 10:30), ὁ αἰὼν μέλλων (Matt. 12:32), acquires presently, like κόσμος, an unfavorable meaning. The βασιλεῖαι τοῦ κόσμου of Matt. 4:8 are βασιλεῖαι τοῦ αἰῶνος τοὺτου (Ignatius, Ep ad Rom. 6); God has delivered us by his Son ἐξ ἐνεστῶτος αἰῶνος πονηροῦ (Gal. 1:4); Satan is θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου (2 Cor. 4:4; cf. Ignatius, Ep. ad Magn. 1: ὁ ἀρχὼν τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου); sinners walk κατὰ τὸν αἰῶνος τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (Ephes. 2:2), too weakly translated in our Version, as in those preceding, “according to the course of this world.” This last is a particularly instructive passage, for in it both words occur together; Bengel excellently remarking: ‘αἰών et κόσμος differunt. Ille hunc regit et quasi informat: κόσμος est quiddam exterius, αἰών subtilius. Tempus [== αἰών] dicitur non solum physice, sed etiam moraliter, connotatâ qualitate hominum in eo viventium; et sic αἰών dicit longam temporum seriem, ubi aetas mala malam aetatem excipit.’ Compare Windischmann (on Gal. 1:4): ‘αἰών darf aber durchaus nicht bloss als Zeit gefasst werden, sondern begreift alles in der Zeit befangene; die Welt und ihre Herrlichkeit, die Menschen und ihr natürliches unerlöstes Thun und Treiben in sich, im Contraste zu dem hier nur beginnenden, seiner Sehnsucht und Vollendung nach aber jenseitigen und ewigen, Reiche des Messias.’ We speak of ‘the times,’ attaching to the word an ethical signification; or, still more to the point, ‘the age,’ ‘the spirit or genius of the age,’ ‘der Zeitgeist.’ All that floating mass of thoughts, opinions, maxims, speculations, hopes, impulses, aims, aspirations, at any time current in the world, which it may be impossible to seize and accurately define, but which constitute a most real and effective power, being the moral, or immoral, atmosphere which at every moment of our lives we inhale, again inevitably to exhale,—all this is included in the αἰών, which is, as Bengel has expressed it, the subtle informing spirit of the κόσμος, or world of men who are living alienated and apart from God. ‘Seculum,’ in Latin, has acquired the same sense, as in the familiar epigram of Tacitus (Germ. 19), ‘Corrumpere et corrumpi seculum vocatur.’

It must be freely admitted that two passages in the Epistle to the Hebrews will not range themselves according to the distinction here drawn between αἰών and κόσμος, namely i. 2 and xi. 3. In both of these αἰῶνες are the worlds contemplated, if not entirely, yet beyond question mainly, under other aspects than those of time. Some indeed, especially modern Socinian expositors, though not without forerunners who had no such motives as theirs, have attempted to explain αἰῶνες at Heb. 1:3, as the successive dispensations, the χρόνοι καὶ καιροί of the divine economy. But however plausible this explanation might have been if this verse had stood alone, 11:3 is decisive that the αἰῶνες in both passages can only be, as we have rendered it, ‘the worlds,’ and not ‘the ages.’ I have called these the only exceptions, for I cannot accept 1 Tim. 1:17 as a third; where αἰῶνες must denote, not ‘the worlds’ in the usual concrete meaning of the term, but, according to the more usual temporal meaning of αἰών in the N. T., ‘the ages,’ the temporal periods whose sum and aggregate adumbrate the conception of eternity. The βασιλεὺς τῶν αἰώνων (cf. Clement of Rome, 1 Ep. § 13: ὁ δημιουργὸς καὶ πατὴρ τῶν αἰώνων) will thus be the sovereign dispenser and disposer of the ages during which the mystery of God’s purpose with man is unfolding (see Ellicott, in loco).2 For the Hebrew equivalents of the words expressing time and eternity, see Conrad yon Orelli, Die Hebräischen Synonyma der Zeit und Ewigkeit, Leipzig, 1871; and for the Greek and Latin, so far as these seek to express them at all, see Pott, Etym. Forsch. ii. 2. 444.

Footnotes:

1 Origen indeed (in Joan. 38) mentions some one in his day who interpreted κόσμος as the Church, being as it is the ornament of the world (κόσμος οὖσα τοῦ κόσμου).

2 Our English ‘world,’ etymologically regarded, more nearly represents αἰών than κόσμος. The old ‘weralt’ (in modern German ‘welt’) is composed of two words, ‘wer,’ man, and ‘alt,’ age or generation. The ground-meaning, therefore, of ‘weralt’ is generation of men (Pott, Etym. Forsch. vol. ii. pt. i. p. 125). Out of this expression of time unfolds itself that of space, as αἰών passed into the meaning of κόσμος (Grimm, Deutsche Myth. p. 752); but in the earliest German records ‘weralt’ is used, first as an expression of time, and only derivatively as one of space (Rudolf yon Raumer, Die Einwirkung des Christenthums auf die Alt-hochdeutsche Sprache, 1845, p. 375). See however another derivation altogether which Grimm seems disposed to favour (Klein. Schrift. vol. i. p. 305), and which comes very much to this, that ‘world’ == whirled.Etym. Note. 30

Synonyms of the New Testament, London, 1961, pp. 202, 203


Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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