Jeremiah,
I think your cherished friend is definitely promoting kingdom values. Thanks for sharing that.
[edit to get Jeremiah's name right]
Politics
Re: Politics
Last edited by Perry on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Politics
Haole,
Do you see any tension between the following two ideas?
Do you see any tension between the following two ideas?
andOnce it was legal to own slaves. Did that make it "moral"? No. So a corrupt system okaying something doesn't make it moral. Laws made by degenerate people come and go...
The positions and offices are there for God's purposes, and the people we vote for (on either side of the aisle) will be used for his purposes.
Re: Politics
I see this from time to time as well. Partly this is because it’s just so easier to label Christians as judgmental than it is to confront the issue in question. Also, though, I think it’s partly because, lets face it, sometimes Christians are too judgmental.In my family and my wife's, if you even said, "I'm sorry, I don't agree" and excused yourself, they would use that as a way to push their view that the "Christian" was judging them.
Re: Politics
Perry, I apologize for not knowing how to cut and paste the quotes, but as for the tension question, I'm not following. Maybe my quotes are vague.
Re: Politics
Hi Haole,
There's no reason to apologize about the quoting feature. The easiest way to see how to format a quote is to hit the quote button, above the text editor window. You'll find that it uses a [thingy][/thingy] format, where the "[thingy]" is a command that effects how the text between the begin and ending tag will appear.
The two quotes in question were both from your own posts. It seems to me that you're suggesting that worldly governments can be corrupt in the first quote, but that we should maintain absolute submissiveness to them in the second. I see tension between these two ideas.
To me, this gets at the heart of what this entire thread is about.
That is to say, how does a Christian rightly maintain proper respect and submissiveness to secular authorities (that presumably have been placed there directly by God), while at the same time recognizing that secular authorities are often corrupt and run counter to the kingdom of God. (And by secular authorities we can mean either individuals in positions of authority, and also the prevalent "authority" of the law of the land and society in general.)
You mention, for instance, gay marriage and abortion. If these ideals are both upheld by our secular society, do we submit to the authority as "there for God's purposes", or do we recognize that "a corrupt system okaying something doesn't make it moral."
I see this as somewhat of a false dichotomy. I think that a better approach is the kingdom approach. The kingdom approach is to "love your neighbor." So the question to be asking is, how do we love those who want to have gay marriage. Is voting into office those who are against gay marriage the best way to love them? Perhaps partly, but I think that doesn't go nearly far enough. While a bit of a cliche it's still true that "you can't legislate morality". (This is not to say that, other things being equal, I would vote for the candidate who supports gay marriage.)
All of this has to do with how we interact, politically, with our secular world. As Christians, we are not really of this world... we are in, it, but not of it. I don't really see it as our job to try to patch up a broken system. That doesn't mean that I don't try to vote against things like gay marriage and abortion. I do try to vote against those things. I do so because it is my right to do so as a citizen, and, as a citizen, there's nothing wrong with exercise my rights. Paul exercised his rights as Roman citizen. I don't see, though, where Paul (or Jesus) spent a lot of time lobbying to change the secular society of his day. Instead he focused his attention on the church... Christians.
As I said in my first response, to the extent that we can promote the kingdom, we are promoting positive change in our secular society, and these problems take care of themselves. The more our world is encroached upon by the kingdom, the more these problems disappear. When the kingdom is here in its fullness, these secular problems will be gone.
There's no reason to apologize about the quoting feature. The easiest way to see how to format a quote is to hit the quote button, above the text editor window. You'll find that it uses a [thingy][/thingy] format, where the "[thingy]" is a command that effects how the text between the begin and ending tag will appear.
The two quotes in question were both from your own posts. It seems to me that you're suggesting that worldly governments can be corrupt in the first quote, but that we should maintain absolute submissiveness to them in the second. I see tension between these two ideas.
To me, this gets at the heart of what this entire thread is about.
That is to say, how does a Christian rightly maintain proper respect and submissiveness to secular authorities (that presumably have been placed there directly by God), while at the same time recognizing that secular authorities are often corrupt and run counter to the kingdom of God. (And by secular authorities we can mean either individuals in positions of authority, and also the prevalent "authority" of the law of the land and society in general.)
You mention, for instance, gay marriage and abortion. If these ideals are both upheld by our secular society, do we submit to the authority as "there for God's purposes", or do we recognize that "a corrupt system okaying something doesn't make it moral."
I see this as somewhat of a false dichotomy. I think that a better approach is the kingdom approach. The kingdom approach is to "love your neighbor." So the question to be asking is, how do we love those who want to have gay marriage. Is voting into office those who are against gay marriage the best way to love them? Perhaps partly, but I think that doesn't go nearly far enough. While a bit of a cliche it's still true that "you can't legislate morality". (This is not to say that, other things being equal, I would vote for the candidate who supports gay marriage.)
All of this has to do with how we interact, politically, with our secular world. As Christians, we are not really of this world... we are in, it, but not of it. I don't really see it as our job to try to patch up a broken system. That doesn't mean that I don't try to vote against things like gay marriage and abortion. I do try to vote against those things. I do so because it is my right to do so as a citizen, and, as a citizen, there's nothing wrong with exercise my rights. Paul exercised his rights as Roman citizen. I don't see, though, where Paul (or Jesus) spent a lot of time lobbying to change the secular society of his day. Instead he focused his attention on the church... Christians.
As I said in my first response, to the extent that we can promote the kingdom, we are promoting positive change in our secular society, and these problems take care of themselves. The more our world is encroached upon by the kingdom, the more these problems disappear. When the kingdom is here in its fullness, these secular problems will be gone.
Re: Politics
I guess I don't see the connection between loving someone and voting for candidates that mock God.
If laws won't change people's hearts, why would it matter which law was approved?
And if that were the case, why not vote for the one closer to God's laws?
If laws won't change people's hearts, why would it matter which law was approved?
And if that were the case, why not vote for the one closer to God's laws?
Re: Politics
Oh come now! Where have I suggested that one should vote for a candidate that mocks God? I took your original post as a genuine inquiry. Now I wonder whether you're just trolling.Haole wrote:I guess I don't see the connection between loving someone and voting for candidates that mock God.
As far as people's hearts are concerned, it wouldn't.Haole wrote:If laws won't change people's hearts, why would it matter which law was approved?
I can't think of a reason nor have I suggested one should do otherwise. If you're point is to say, "Christians should vote against abortion and gay marriage" why not just come out and say so and have done with it? I don't think you'll find many here, me included, who would disagree.Haole wrote:And if that were the case, why not vote for the one closer to God's laws?
Re: Politics
Trolling was not my intention.
Last edited by Haole on Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Politics
Perry, the "...candidates that mock God" comment came from 99% my misreading of earlier posts and 1% sarcasm. You may not think it neccessary for an apology for me not knowing how to do the "quoty thing", but you will get one for this. I'm sorry.
-Kevin
-Kevin
Re: Politics
THIS is the right question in my opinion... and I think there is a good answerHaole wrote: If laws won't change people's hearts, why would it matter which law was approved?
I totally agree that laws don't change hearts (if anything, they may make hearts worse!). Granting that point, what purpose do laws serve? The answer is that laws exist to deter bad hearts from acting on their badness. Government/laws exist to limit evil in the current age. Government laws are God's interim idea for a fallen world. Many bad hearts simply don't act on their desires b/c of the social ramifications.