Bible Question?

[paulespino]

Thanks, for the references Paidion.

[paulespino]

Romans 5:12-13

I have been listening to Steve's tape but I want to share my idea which is different from him. Most probably my idea is wrong anyway.

 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law...............

Paul just mentioned in verse 12 that people are dying because people have been committing the act of sin but then in verse 13 which is a parenthetical explanation of verse 12

tells us that sin was not charged to people when there is no law yet people are dying because all have committed the act of sin from Adam to Moses.


I believe Paul is trying to explain to people that even there was no law people are still being charged of sin but the sins that are being charged to them are not base on violating the law but base on something else perhaps they were being charged of sin base on their conscience

The reason Paul has to insert this parenthesis is because we all know that the Jews lived, sleep and breathe according to the Law from Moses until the death of Jesus
therefore Paul was forced to insert this parenthesis because he knew that many people will be asking if people before Moses were also guilty of violating the law.

[benstenson]

Paul just mentioned in verse 12 that people are dying because people have been committing the act of sin

Exactly. Not because God blames them for what Adam did which was not their own choice, but because they followed Adam's example and made their own choice to sin. I take the "death" to mean judgment/condemnation rather than literal physical death. If physical death was the punishment for sin then Christians would not physically die because they have been forgiven for their sins. Enoch did not physically die. Also Paul said "we will not all sleep". So I think the death may just represent judgment and condemnation.

I believe Paul is trying to explain to people that even there was no law people are still being charged of sin but the sins that are being charged to them are not base on violating the law but base on something else perhaps they were being charged of sin base on their conscience

Yes, the natural law which was the foundation of his argument established in chapters 1 and 2. God's wrath is revealed from heaven against both Jews and Gentiles, religious people and secular people, because they all naturally know God and know their obligation toward Him and to each other. That is why Cain was condemned even though he did not have the written sixth commandment back then. He did not violate the command about the forbidden fruit, or any bible verse, but he was still wrong and knew it.

The reason Paul has to insert this parenthesis is because we all know that the Jews lived, sleep and breathe according to the Law from Moses until the death of Jesus
therefore Paul was forced to insert this parenthesis because he knew that many people will be asking if people before Moses were also guilty of violating the law.

This is exactly how I understand this passage as well. It is like Paul was saying, just as a man's standing with God did not hinge on the law from Adam to Moses, so does a man's standing with God not hinge on the law now that faith in Jesus Christ is being preached. It is like he is showing the scriptural precedent for the international/multicultural call of the Gospel, how it is consistent with everything the scriptures say.

It is exciting to see someone have similar thoughts about this passage.

If I remember correctly, I think Steve was leaning toward what is sometimes called the "Federal Headship" theory of Original Sin. I think he said he was still open minded about this passage though, if I am remembering correctly. I don't know how long ago the recording was from. It would be interesting to hear if he considered this interpretation. I have not heard it much at all myself. It is definitely an intellectually challenging passage. My friend asked the other day, "Were the people Paul knew just really smart back then or what?"

[paulespino]

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the reply. Yes it is true that he discuss corporate Adam and corporate Christ. Adam is the head of the fallen and Christ is the head of the upright.

But I just realize now that my idea was actually influenced by Steve because in his tapes "Eschatology" he discuss the 7 dispensations and in here he mentioned

"the law of dispensation" and "the dispensation of conscience" he said that during the law of dispensation people are being judge according to the law but from the time of the fall until Moses ( before the law) people are being judge according to their conscience.