assistance to non believer - WWJD?

thrombomodulin
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assistance to non believer - WWJD?

Post by thrombomodulin » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:17 pm

We were faced with a bit of a conundrum today, and I would like to get a better understanding of how a Christian ought to act in a certain situation. Namely, I am looking to see how someone might apply biblical principles to this situation, to determine the course of action that is most pleasing to God.

Background: A young man and young woman had been living out of a truck. She is pregnant, but not very far along yet. Not too long ago, our neighbor permitted them to move into her home. My father has gotten to know them, in hopes of an evangelistic opportunity. They did attend church at least once at my fathers invitation, and will be doing so again. We learned today that their vehicle had broken down, and the young woman cannot get to work. Tonight, she asked for a ride to work.

Of course, believers should by actions show love to those in need. Giving a ride to work is clearly an excellent opportunity to do so. However, it is now time to mention that she is employed as a show girl at an adult-only place of entertainment. We presently hold the view that such activities are not at all pleasing to the Lord. How would you respond to this request for a ride to work? Why? What biblical precedent would you give for your choice?

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Suzana
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Re: assistance to non believer - WWJD?

Post by Suzana » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:30 pm

I would give her a ride to work. (After praying, & asking God for guidance & if having the peace to proceed).
- 1Co 5:12 ESV
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

Jesus was called a friend to sinners – how can we be called a friend if we refuse help when needed, especially if it's an emergency?
(I would draw the line if it involved criminal activity of course – eg. If she were a prostitute and it was illegal).
It would leave the door open to further friendship & opportunity of being a good witness; if you refused to help her, I can't see how you would not reinforce whatever negative impressions they may already have toward Christians.
Suzana
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If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher

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Candlepower
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Re: assistance to non believer - WWJD?

Post by Candlepower » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:54 am

thrombomodulin,

If the woman in your scenario worked at Walmart, I would not give her a ride to work unless my wife accompanied me (abstain from even the appearance of evil doing, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, be vigilant because the devil is seeking someone to devour, etc.). Neither my wife nor I would give her a ride to what sounds like a strip club. Getting to the hospital can be an emergency; getting to a strip club is never an emergency, unless the place is on fire and you are the fire-truck driver.

Suppose your next door neighbor were an abortionist. Suppose one morning his car wouldn't start and he asked you for a ride to his clinic. Would you drive him to work? After all, his work is legal.

I think both legalized murder and legalized pornography are activities Jesus would not aid and abet. I can't imagine He wants us to. Unless I'm reading too much into "she is employed as a show girl at an adult-only place of entertainment," the woman in question is earning her living from a form of prostitution. She gets paid money to display her body. She's a professional.

Remember what Jesus told the adulterous woman? He told her, "Go and sin no more." Suppose she had said, "But I need the money." Do you suppose He would have said, "Oh, in that case, continue in your gross sin. Unemployment is worse than fornication."

Prostitution is legal in Nevada. Would it be okay to transport a desperate prostitute to work in Nevada where her trade is legal, but not in, say, Idaho where it's a crime?

Obviously, the exotic entertainer has problems. She needs help. But facilitating her sinful behavior does not seem to me to be an effective way to help her out of her sinful behavior. Are there any creative alternatives that might actually help her? I think there have to be. In addition to witnessing to the couple, you may...

1. Tell her that because you belong to Jesus, He would be displeased with you if you were to take her to work at that place. Suggest she call a cab or catch the bus.
2. A better idea would be 1) tell her you can't take her to work at that place. 2) advise her to quit her job there. 3) Tell her you will arrange transportation for her to
apply for work at places that don't require her to debase herself.
3. Within your Christian fellowship, perhaps there is someone who can volunteer to repair the broken down vehicle. Until then, take the couple to places where they
really need to go (church, grocery store, Goodwill, clinic, job applications, etc.).

I can't help but wonder what the fellow she's living with does for a living. You can encourage and assist him to do his part in caring for the pregnant woman, if he's neglecting his duty.

It seems to me that the more you help a sinner sin, the less difference the sinner sees between you and him, and the less credible becomes your witness for Christ. I think that sometimes we are a little timid to behave righteously because we are so afraid of being thought of (by ourselves and others) as self-righteous. We are too quick to waffle and compromise. We can behave righteously without being self-righteous. We can sup with sinners without facilitating their sin. That's what Jesus did.

Candlepower

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TK
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Re: assistance to non believer - WWJD?

Post by TK » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:55 am

This is a tough one.

candlepower wrote:
We can sup with sinners without facilitating their sin. That's what Jesus did.
But there is no record of Jesus castigating them for getting drunk, etc. He did tell the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more- true. But she just escaped being stoned by the skin of her teeth. It was a good admonition under the circumstances.

I think the woman can be given a ride, and to the the extent it causes internal conflict I would be honest and just tell her why-- essentially that Jesus loves her dearly, but that He is not pleased with her occupation. I think not taking her is simply passing judgment, and I do not think we are supposed to do that.

What would make a better impression on an unbeliever (better, the more loving impression)-- a Christian who self-righteously refuses to render needed assistance, or one who has compassion? I think refusing to help her on the basis that she is a sinner is a dangerous road to go down.

Of course I agree 100% about makiing sure my wife would either go along, or be the one to take her. In fact, in this specific situation, I think it would be better for a Christian woman to talk to this girl, as opposed to a man- or at minmum as a couple.

TK

thrombomodulin
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Re: assistance to non believer - WWJD?

Post by thrombomodulin » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:06 am

Thanks for each of the replies.

I would like to say that there are different categories into which actions fall, among them:
  • (A) Actions which are evil according to God's law, but not according to the laws of men.
  • (B) Actions which are evil according to the law of men (government).
Any action, whether good or evil, is in one of the two following categories:
  • (1) Actions which which do not infringe on the property rights of others.
  • (2) Actions which infringe on the property rights of others.
Of course, God is the supreme judge, and every person will be judged by God according to His law. God has also delegated, or at least tolerated, that civil government should judge and prosecute some evil actions (Rom 13).

A relevant question is "which evil actions has God permitted that civil government should judge and prosecute?" My present understanding is that the purpose of civil government is to settle conflicts between individuals (B-2). In the situation described above, the person does evil (A), but does not bring about a valid dispute between themselves and others (1). I understand I Cor 5:12 as Suzana above does - namely, that such a matter is of no concern to me or any other Christian. That is to say, God has reserved for himself alone the judgement of these actions. You might have the contrary opinion that the civil government has been authorized by God to prosecute such things, and if so, different conclusions may follow.

The analogy to the abortionist is not a parallel situation because the actions are in a different category. Rather than A-1, it is A-2. So when "aiding and abetting" the exotic situation I would be doing so in a matter where:
  • I am directed not to judge (I Cor 5:12).
  • No one involved will receive the consequences of their evil actions which they were not instrumental in bringing about.
But, in the abortionist situation:
  • Men are directed by God to judge - at least this particular matter (Gen 9:6).
  • Someone involved will receive the consequences of the evil actions which they were not instrumental in bringing about. Namely, since no one has a property right over the unborn child's body, they cannot exercise it so as to kill and destroy the unborn baby.
I affirm that Christians should not "aid and abet" in granting assistance to non-believers where such actions are in either category "B" or category "2". What is not clear to me is if the same applies to category "1" actions.

A very significant difficulty with category "1" actions is that "aiding and abetting" are not of a black and white nature, but rather fall along a continuous spectrum. For example, we might have offered to repair the truck. I am not uncertain about what the truck would have be subsequently been used for, especially if we were proficient enough to complete the task before the hour at which work begins. If we were not, it would be used to the same end the next day. In general aid given to anyone who is living in rebellion to the Lordship of Christ benefits themselves and thus enables them to further pursue whatever evil desires they have. That is to say all is fungible. For example, if I give food to a homeless man, he has more funds to spend on drugs and alcohol than otherwise.

Other points:
  • Regarding Nevada/Idaho. A Christian should act differently in the states to abide by civil and criminal law, since God instructs us to submit to Caesar.
  • The fellow she lives with is employed in a low income, manual labor job. As far as I am aware, he is doing all that he is able to provide. The job market, as you know, is terrible and we are not able to arrange alternative employment for either.
  • My father did bring her in last night. We both hope it was not the wrong choice. She did expressed displeasure over how she is judged by Christians, and also how it was the "girls at the club" who really cared about her, and helped her with her needs in some prior situations. She said that other Christian's she knew did not assist at all.
Question: When Jesus did his first miracle, did he "aid and abet" any person attending the wedding party in attaining the state of being drunk?

P.S. Thanks for expressing other ideas, although I did not comment directly on each.

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Candlepower
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Re: assistance to non believer - WWJD?

Post by Candlepower » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:17 pm

Dear thrombomodulin and TK,

I appreciated your responses and read them with interest. I also appreciate your Christian desire to witness to the lost in both word and deed. In your hearts, I’m confident you want to please God and advance His kingdom. How best to do that can be puzzling at times. To me, the principles behind your dilemma, thrombomodulin (of whether or not to transport a stripper to the strip club where she “works”), are not difficult to figure out. But the mechanics of doing the right thing can be difficult. Both of you see this problem a little different from me. That’s okay. I’m willing to learn, and willing to teach, though I admit I have more need of the first than the latter. Your support for some of your positions concerning giving the girl a ride, however, I find unconvincing.

Brother thrombomodulin, I think the wording in your posts reveals you are somewhat hesitant in this matter and that you are concerned about whether or not you are doing the right thing. You don’t seem to have total peace about it. These feelings of doubt may indicate that you are receiving signals from the Holy Spirit (through your conscience) that you are not doing the right thing. Dealing with the conscience can be tricky, but I do believe our conscience is a gift from God and that He often deals with us through it. If you aren’t sure from Scripture that God wants you to transport a stripper to her strip club, then don’t do it. There are alternatives. Apparently, she and her significant-other are already being helped significantly in the form of housing. I listed a few ideas in my first post. Others reading these posts may have more suggestions. I suggested that she be encouraged and assisted in finding another career field. It may be difficult for her to find another job, but don’t give up. Does she even want a different kind of job? Has she tried? Has anyone suggested it rather than dismissing the idea because the economy is bad?

Pornography (which is what the woman is employed doing) is against God’s law. This woman makes money by arousing men’s lust. Let’s be blunt, she is in the pornography business. Even without statistics to prove it, common sense tells us that pornography promotes rape, incest, child molestation, divorce, et al. Pornography is not a victimless crime. Our judgment of right and wrong, legal and illegal, criminal or noncriminal should not be based on hypothetical philosophical constructs, but on Scriptural principles.

TK, you are right that there is no record of Jesus castigating people for getting drunk when He supped with them. Also, to my recollection, there is no record that anyone did get drunk when Jesus supped with them. In several other places in Scripture, God criticizes (castigates) drunkenness. Nowhere does He praise it, except in a non-alcoholic spiritual sense. As far as your using Jesus’ practice of dining with those who drank wine as evidence that He therefore facilitated drunkenness does not seem logical to me. First, it can’t be proven that the others either did or did not get drunk, and it can’t be proven that He did or did not criticize them for it. In the absence of such record, my inclination is that (based on His aversion for drunkenness as He informed us elsewhere in Scripture), He probably did criticize it. At least, it is more likely to me that He did than that He didn’t. Now, apparently you feel that because Jesus facilitated drunkenness (which seems contrary to Scripture) and did not castigate it (which cannot be proven), it is therefore somehow defensible for us to do similar things in other situations — like transporting a down-and-out stripper to the place where she professionally inflames lust, which results in all kinds of damaging secondary consequences. I know that neither you nor thrombomodulin intend to promote pornography or its hideous consequences. We all know that those consequences are real and deadly. But are you really understanding what this woman is doing? Maybe in our decadent culture we reckon what she is doing as not all that bad. After all, we see much the same stuff on billboards and TV every day. The deluge can desensitize us.

It bothers me a lot that there seems to be an insufficient distinction being made between the stripper’s trade and the trade of a woman working at, say, a Target checkout counter. It’s almost as if you are treating the stripper’s job as a somewhat legitimate way to make a living. There is a HUGE difference between checker and stripper. Giving a down-and-out gal a ride to her job at Target is not the same as giving a down-and-out gal a ride to her job at the strip club. It’s not all about economics here. The stripper’s job is intrinsically evil.

thrombomodulin, you said, “I affirm that Christians should not "aid and abet" in granting assistance to non-believers where such actions are in either category "B" (Actions which are evil according to the law of men), or category "2" (Actions which infringe on the property rights of others). What is not clear to me is if the same applies to category "1" (Actions which do not infringe on the property rights of others). Scripturally, I do not understand your distinctions. I think we are urged to avoid and resist all evil. It seems reasonable, then, that we should avoid assisting others to indulge in it. Your category A is where we are to concentrate, I think: “Actions which are evil according to God's law.” Paul said, “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age…” (Titus 2:11, 12). We should try to live that way, and we should avoid enabling others to live the other way. Everything we do is important, which is why we are accountable for everything we do.

I think my analogy between a pornographer and an abortionist is a good one. It is not locality that makes those pursuits good or evil (legal in one state, illegal in another). God sees them both evil everywhere. That goes for prostitution as well, even in Nevada. Also, the presence or absence of an offense against property does not determine an action’s wrongness or whether we should aid or abet it. We are to measure man's laws by God's Law, not the reverse. God’s law transcends property and man’s ever-changing property lines.

There is no doubt about it, thrombomodulin, you are dealing with a difficult situation. I'm sure you are trying to do the right thing and are seeking wisdom. I think all of us who are reading this thread should pray for you, your family, your neighbor, and the needy couple that God has allowed to cross your path. It is no accident. It is a delicate matter because on the one hand you hope they become Christians and begin walking in Jesus’ footsteps, while on the other hand, you don’t want to compromise your Godly principles by enabling the woman in question to maintain her ungodly ones. You want to be kind without being weak. Romans 14:16 comes to mind; “Let not then your good be evil spoken of.” The dilemma, sometimes, is how to do right without doing it wrongly. I love you, brother, and pray God will give you wisdom and courage. I pray God will open the hearts of the needy couple.

I love you, too Brother TK.

God bless you both

Candlepower

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Homer
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Re: assistance to non believer - WWJD?

Post by Homer » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:42 pm

What an opportunity for a church! It seems to me that one purpose for having a church is to accomplish that which would be very difficult for an individual to do.

Thrombomodulin wrote:
Not too long ago, our neighbor permitted them to move into her home. My father has gotten to know them, in hopes of an evangelistic opportunity. They did attend church at least once at my fathers invitation, and will be doing so again.
My father did bring her in last night. We both hope it was not the wrong choice. She did expressed displeasure over how she is judged by Christians, and also how it was the "girls at the club" who really cared about her, and helped her with her needs in some prior situations. She said that other Christian's she knew did not assist at all.
I do not know what the church mentioned would be willing to do but it seems this woman should be told to quit her sinful job and that the church will ensure that she will have shelter and food to eat until she and her man are self supporting in an honorable way. They should be encouraged to get married if they are not. And if they are unwilling to make an appropriate effort to become self supporting, then the church is no longer under obligation to assist them.

It is like the abortion issue. We have no right to tell a person not have an abortion while at the same time we are unwilling to give assistance needed to keep the baby.

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TK
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Re: assistance to non believer - WWJD?

Post by TK » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:04 pm

Candlepower wrote(referring to me):
Now, apparently you feel that because Jesus facilitated drunkenness (which seems contrary to Scripture) and did not castigate it (which cannot be proven), it is therefore somehow defensible for us to do similar things in other situations
I dont see anywhere in my post that I said or insinuated that Jesus "facilitated drunkeness." All I said was that there is no records of him judging those "sinners" who he was dining with== specifically there is no record of him castigating drunks.

However, I think it would be a fair assumption that some of the people who drank His wine at Cana might have gotten a little tipsy. It was a wedding celebration, after all. That doesn't mess with my theology at all. I still think Jesus was sinless and I still think He always did the right thing.

TK

thrombomodulin
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Re: assistance to non believer - WWJD?

Post by thrombomodulin » Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:45 pm

Candlepower,

Thank you for giving me some assistance in discerning this matter. My conscience has not been signaling that doing such was wrong, so I was here seeking to understand the proper course of action by deducing the relevant principles from scripture (as opposed to a hypothetical philosophical construct).

There is much you have said I agree with. To my knowledge, no one has yet suggested that she get a different kind of a job. I agree that this needs to be done - but I think addressing the topic of whether or not she desires to become a follower of Christ ought to precede this. That is to say, I am thinking that before addressing the issue of employment, one should communicate the reality of Christ Jesus as a King, and that one must and submit to His authority. She would then have 'count the cost' and choose whether or not she will join the ranks of the believers. Part of the cost, for sure, is to give up this career. My comment was intended to be dismissive of the idea only of alternative employment only in so far as I have no awareness of any particular alternative opportunity.

I can affirm full agreement as well where you said:
  • "The stripper’s job is intrinsically evil".
  • "It is not locality that makes those pursuits good or evil (legal in one state, illegal in another). God sees them both evil everywhere."
Candlepower wrote:I think my analogy between a pornographer and an abortionist is a good one. It is not locality that makes those pursuits good or evil (legal in one state, illegal in another). God sees them both evil everywhere. That goes for prostitution as well, even in Nevada. Also, the presence or absence of an offense against property does not determine an action’s wrongness or whether we should aid or abet it. We are to measure man's laws by God's Law, not the reverse. God’s law transcends property and man’s ever-changing property lines
I must concede to your point here. I had been considering two factors which confused my thinking (1) Help granted to an unbeliever is "aiding and abetting" their capability to exercise wrong doing on account of the fungibility of what is given. I think I had been too reluctant to allow the possibility that a 'gray area' might exist, and thus we should logically go to either extreme: not supporting at all for fear that our gift might be used for evil ends, or fully supporting regardless of whether the gift might be used for evil ends. Since, in this case, we are clearly at one side of the spectrum, I think it is safe to conclude the trip ought not to have been given. (2) I was considering both the proper role of civil government, as well as, individual Christian behavior in such matters. I had in mind that the role of civil government and our role as Christians should be similar in this regard, however, in retrospect I thinking this is an error. For I had taken the idea that we should not judge the behavior of non believers, and leave such matters to God (I cor 5:12-13) as tantamount to the idea that we need not necessarily concern ourselves at all with whatever they may do. While this may be a good civil government policy, we need not be as lenient and judge the merit of particular assistance subjectively by probably cause of it being used for undesirable ends.

Your prayers are appreciated for the couple, as we proceed from here. I am now settled on the opinion that a ride not ought to be granted, but some other assistance offered as a substitution. Homer's ideas are a good course of action, provided the willingness to make resources available are to be found.

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Re: assistance to non believer - WWJD?

Post by askmatt » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:33 pm

This indeed is a tough situation. Here is my personal conviction. I could not take this woman to the adult club and have a clear conscience. I just can't think of anywhere in scripture where Jesus or the apostles helped someone continue to sin for the sake of being a good witness. I think of the house divided teaching in Matthew. Jesus basically said that if satan worked against evil then he was divided against himself. If Jesus were to help someone sin how could that be any different? To me it is like trying to mix oil and water. I think this is where faith comes in. I would need to trust God that He would show me a way to love this woman and help her in a different way. I would let this woman know that in no way would I judge her, but as a Christian I just couldn't go against God's teachings. If you talk with someone with love and respect, they will know that you aren't judging them. Keep in mind that the woman does have a place to stay, so it's not like she is going to be living in the back of the truck again. She has that going for her, so that would give time to go to work. I tend to agree with Homer that this is a chance for the church to shine for Christ and if my church wouldn't or couldn't do it, I would talk to another one. There has to be another answer. There are just too many sinful things at stake to aid this woman in this way. The issue alone of knowing that married men look at her in lust would concern me. We all know what Jesus said about lust and the heart. Let's just think about this for a minute. Jesus has given this teaching about lust and the heart, but then to prove to a woman that He loves her, He helps her find a way to dance knowing that men will lust after her. That wouldn't sound like a creditable teacher to me. Talk about a divided house.

We are all trying to solve this with our own understanding. Love her like Christ and trust God with all your heart to help show a better way. I don't know how many times over the last few years that someone came into my office at the church with all kinds of strange situations. I would often say something like, "God, I don't know what to do, buy You do. Your word says to ask for wisdom. I need it now. Show me how we can fix this, Lord." I can't think of one time that God let me down. Sometimes I ended up realizing that people actually enjoyed the sin they were in and didn't want to change anyway, even when presented with a better option. However, to justify themselves they would blast the church, Christians or somebody else. Usually when they walked away mad and blaming the church it was because they wanted to do it their way or no way.


God would never ask us to help someone continue in their sin in order to be a good witness. That's when you have to trust the Holy Spirit. After all, God is not willing that any would perish, so He will do anything He can to help us try to reach people.

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