Question re Tongues

[Homer]

TK wrote:

So what would say to Steve G who states that he DOES pray in tongues privately? (sorry to single you out, Steve) or any other sold out spirit-filled believer who prays in a tongue privately, or under their breath?

When Paul said he spoke in tongues more than any of them, does this mean he was always walking around talking out loud in tongues? It sounds to me that when he was in a group setting he did NOT speak in tongues. So when was he doing all this tongue-speaking?

SamIam has made a good point. There seems to be little support in scripture for the practice of private speaking in tongues, or private use of any spiritual gift. It seems rather the opposite. Both Paul and Peter seem to, if not forbid it, to highly discourage the practice.

Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 12:7 (NASB)
7. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

Paul says that the gifts of the Spirit are for the benefit of the body as a whole. Both the context and the Greek make this clear.

Then Peter admonished those to whom he wrote to use their gift(s) to serve others:

1 Peter 4:10 (NASB)
10. As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

It is unclear to me how this is accomplished when any gift is used privately.

[TK]

SamIam wrote:

I would tell him to follow the teachings of Jesus.

Quoting Charlie Brown, "Good grief."

you wrote:

Take care not to think that the repition of words means you will be heard.

By this I assume you are stating that praying in tongues is the endless repetition of words. Why?

You wrote:

Jesus gives us clear teaching on how to pray, and it is in understandable words. Praying in tongues is a practice based on inferences from a questionable interpretation of a difficult to understand section of scripture.

Granted, Jesus did give some prayer instruction-- but do you pray anything other than the Lord's prayer? I don't think that instruction can be read as a forbidding of praying in tongues. Do you think Jesus's recitation of the Lord's prayer exhausted all possible instruction on prayer? He said other things, like we should command mountains to move, as opposed to asking God to move them, and people don't like that either.

Your wrote:

I would not infer from this statement that Paul actively spoke in tongues more than them all, only that he was capable of doing so, but did not do it because it was not a way to build up the church. Paul was not encouraging speaking in tongues, he was discouraging it.

I am not inferring anything-- Paul says: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." not "I could speak."

Like I said before, you think I Cor. 14 does not support praying in tongues, and I do. It's okay if we disagree. The world will not come to an end.

TK

[SamIam]

TK,

I don't know that praying in tongues is endless repitition, afterall, it has got to end at sometime. But speaking words that you don't understand just might be "empty phrases."

My point is that the command "pray like this" followed by an example of what prayer should contain trumps a form of prayer that is nowhere commanded.

I am not inferring anything-- Paul says: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." not "I could speak."

I think you need to consider that Paul is using hyperbole. He is exagerating to make a point. We should learn the point he is making rather than holding on to the exageration.

[TK]

You could be right, SamIam. I don't think so, but you could be. Personally, i know too many people who pray in tongues and have heard too many testimonies from others about praying in tongues that I don't have any doubts about it. However, five or so years ago I would have had major doubts about it, because I didn't know any "charismatic" people.

this has been a good discussion.

TK

[SamIam]

TK wrote:
Personally, i know too many people who pray in tongues and have heard too many testimonies from others about praying in tongues that I don't have any doubts about it.

I take this to mean that you consider your experience (and thus your judgement) as the ultimate authority in evaluating this phenomenon (as least as far as your participation). I hope you don't consider anyone else under obligation to agree with you.

[TK]

SamIam wrote:

I take this to mean that you consider your experience (and thus your judgement) as the ultimate authority in evaluating this phenomenon (as least as far as your participation). I hope you don't consider anyone else under obligation to agree with you.

Nope, like I said- I think scripture DOES teach it. That is my authority. What I have experienced simply backs up that authority.

Look at it this way. Since "praying in tongues" is a disputed point (it either is Biblical or it isn't) it would seem that since many solid believers pray in tongues may lend credence to the idea that it is in fact a Biblical practice. Otherwise, like I said before, lots and lots of people are just pretending.

As a side note, what do you think Jude is talking about when he uses the phrase "praying in the Holy Spirit?" Just curious.

TK

[SamIam]

TK,

Here are a number of of other verses that associate the Holy Spirit with prayer or worship:

In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. (Ephensians 6:16,17)

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." (Revelation 1:10,11)

Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh (Philippians 3:2,3)

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Ephesians 5:18-21)

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26,27)

Romans 8 elaborates on the connection between prayer and the Holy Spirt. It appears the Holy Spirit assists us in prayer in ways we may not understandand may not be aware of, but I trust is greatly to our benefit. Perhaps "praying in the Spirit" is a gift for all who believe in Christ and is part of the package we receive from God as the "gift of the Holy Spirit."

[Homer]

TK,

I do not think a case can be made for "praying in the Spirit" and "praying in tongues" being the same thing. Consider what Paul wrote:

Ephesians 6:18 (New King James Version)
18. praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

Watchful here is agrupneo meaning "intent on a thing, alert, perceptive" which hardly fits prayer where you do not understand what you are saying. How would you know you were praying for anyone?

[RickC]

Hey Homer

The book of Ephesians doesn't specifically mention speaking in tongues. However, some of the first believers there did.

(NKJV) Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard [this,] they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

We have no reason to think the Ephesians stopped speaking in tongues. And since Paul spent two years in Ephesus in the school of Tyrannus (Acts 19:10), he could have conceivably covered all of the teachings about the gifts of the Spirit which he wrote about in 1 Cor 12-14 while in residence there. We don't know this happened, but I see it as possible, if not likely.

I do not think a case can be made for "praying in the Spirit" and "praying in tongues" being the same thing. Consider what Paul wrote:

Ephesians 6:18 (New King James Version)
18. praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

Watchful here is agrupneo meaning "intent on a thing, alert, perceptive" which hardly fits prayer where you do not understand what you are saying. How would you know you were praying for anyone?

I believe "praying in the Spirit" and/or "praying in the spirit" can be: 1) without words (per Sam's Romans, above), 2) in your native language, and, 3) in tongues.

If I'm praying in tongues for a specific person, persons, or a thing, I know what or who I have in mind. I just don't know exactly what my petitions are, other than for whom or what.

Praying in tongues is similar to groanings. If someone or something is on my mind or in my heart, I know the Spirit is interceding through me. I usually have a general idea of what is being prayed, especially if someone or something is weighing heavily on my heart.
At other times, I simply know that I'm praying (which can include praising) according to the will of God.

Not really into debating about this, just wanted to give (poor) TK a break!
(Hi TK, GBU Bro)!

Take care!

[RickC]

Hi Steve F

I can tell you that one time my wife was in a church when a message in tongues was given. She felt strongly that she had the interpretation. She had never given an interpretation before and was too nervous to say anything. A short time later someone else got up and gave the exact interpretation she felt she was given. in this instance it would appear the interpretation was accurate. If only it was always as clear as that.

I've heard 'the same story' quite a few times. It's happened to me as well, though I haven't been active in the vocal gifts for some time. Thanks for sharing this!