Shepherding vs. cult

[Guest]

Steve, I really appreciate your original post in this thread. I think it deals with the matter most effectively.

I'm not sure, however, that there are any genuine letters of Ignatius in existence. I'm sure you are aware that there is a shorter and longer recension (Is that the word?) of each.

Nevertheless each recension maintains the overseer-elder distinction, and asks the churches to regard their overseer as Christ himself.

I suspect that these writings which purport to have been those of Ignatius either have been written in their entirety by someone other than Ignatius, or else, if they were written by Ignatius, there has been a lot of interpolation by later catholic authors.

[Guest]

Contrast that with what some are advocating on the other thread. We differ in doctrine so we retreat to a comfortable building where we meet only with those who hold the same doctrine that we do. We don't meet with those other so-called believers across town nor do we discuss Christianity when we see them away from our gatherings and we probably don't even know their names. I assume that Paul was able to go into any

Where I attend there is a variety of doctrinal belief and no harping on things that divide. People of differing opinions are welcome and are not hushed if their opinion is different. Several of the local Pastors meet weekly. At least twice yearly there are joint worship services. At Thanksgiving at least seven different congregations attended. We love one another. The congregation I attend took an offering and collected a substantial amount to give to another pastor of a small local church who was in need. Perhaps things are different where you live?

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

It sounds like you have a very healthy church fellowship down there in Brownsville. You probably also realize what a rare jewel that you have there. I would likely attend if I wasn't 3 hours away. .

Can I ask what denomination (if any) your fellowship is?

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

Sadly it is different. Rather than rehash that here, the actual thread was entitled Women and authority in this same Church Life group of topics, not 1Timothy 2:12, and gives the background for some of the previous post. If I weren't so far away, I might like to visit your church, too. But, now, about that immersion...........

Regards,

livingink

[Guest]

Chris,

Independent Christian Church, a part of the "Restoration Movement". And I might add very independent. No one outside of the local congregation has any say over us other than Christ.

Probably closest to the Church of God, Anderson, Indiana than any other denomination. Although the "Restoration Movement" has its roots in the Cane Ridge Revival we aren't very charismatic. Go figure!

Blessings, Homer

[Guest]

I am not quite sure if this follows your thread but I think it does.

When I was first saved in "82 My husband and I became members of one of the sheperding movement churches from that time.Rochester covenant church in Mi. I can't remember who the main men were in the larger circle, but one of them was derek prince.They had a very rigid sytem of leadership among the men and the women followed. They were also charasmatic.

I had alot of really good solid bible teaching from the main pastor. He seemed to have a gift of mercy and teaching, and I think that is maybe one of the things that saved so many of us from deeper spiritual hurt.He finally had an open forum one Sunday and let any one in the church give a voice to what they felt was wrong that was going on in the body. But I do have to say being in it ,especially as a new Christian, the way the church (our local church) fell apart was really a work of the Holy spirit in action and quite amazing.

Even though I was a very new believer the HS put a real discernment in me that the way it was set up was wrong. I was one of just a handful that would go to the main pastor and bring this info. To make a long story short. It finally was dispersed. I know others in cluding myself and my husband, felt very damaged in the spirit by it and it took us time to heal and even consider going to any organized Christian church body of any kind for several years after that.

My question to you is, I never really understood exactly what it was they were doing wrong vs what they were doing right. I didn't even fully realize beyond what the Holy Spirit revealed to us which got us to leave, that there was an official problem with that movement until reading about it years later through stories of people that felt they were very damaged from it.

I knew it seemed like man was taking leadership over God but it took a while to pick apart what else they might have taught us that was wrong and I still have some doubts today if I am standing on wrong reasoning with leadership over me. I would really appreciate any of you that undertsand this movement to give me some insight. I would really like to put some of that mental questioning to rest.

I have forgiven the church leaders etc. a long time ago. But I know even to this day I am a little weary of strong leadership over me because of that and other experiences.. Thanks Glow

[Guest]

Steve wrote:

Cult-like shepherding occurs when leaders mistake their task for that of micro-managing the sheep, and/or driving the sheep into conformity with the leadership's "vision" (which is a spiritual-sounding euphemism for "agenda").

Hey Steve,

I'm a pastor of a very small Church in the Portland, Oregon area. This quote from your first post here resonated quite a bit with me. It's a tremendous misfortune that "pastoral vision" has become such a sensation. There is a huge temptation, of course, for pastors (and new churches, especially) to try to create their own ministry niche and in so doing appear cutting-edge. But any time there is narrowed focus on one aspect of the church's ministry, the basic and beautiful holistic nature of the church community is sacrificed.

I'm a finite person. I have a day job (I'm a teacher). I'm not paid to be a pastor (and for the most part I think that's a good thing). I have certain giftings and vision for my personal life and for how I fit into the larger church community, but who am I to dictate a vision for our church over and against the vision granted to the universal church in Scripture? Man, I welcome and indeed have come to rely on members of the church with personal visions that differ from my own, and different ways at approaching the shared vision that all churches can claim.

That shared vision may not be glamorous: staying grounded in the word, worshiping together, bearing one another's burdens, exhorting one another in love, tolerating differences of opinion on secondary issues while pursuing truth in honesty, being Christ to the world, and a handful of things we all know but often want to skip past in the rush to be different. It may not be glamorous, but it is the real thing and when you're experiencing it together it is exquisite.

On a different note, I have a follow-up question regarding pastoral authority. Could you address Hebrews 14:17:

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

You came out pretty strongly about their not being an inherent "authority" in the "office" of presbyter or bishop. Do you, however, see leaders as having authority conferred upon them in some way, though? I agree that a pastor should not use his authority to dictate non-essential matters of doctrine or practice or to override matters of individual conscience, but at the same time verses like the one above to seem to exhort Christians to defer to church leadership in some way. Practically speaking, pastors often need to make decisions (hopefully with input from others in the congregation) on whether to do xyz this way or that in the daily operations of the Church. Isn't submission to church leadership on practical matters in view here? (not to be confused with submission to church leaders on issues of conscience)

Also, the word "obey" in the passage about (NIV) has some strong overtones to it. Thoughts on that?

Hope this is all conherent enough.

And thanks for starting this thread 2 years ago, Chris

[Guest]

Hi Chris! I'm sure Steve will provide an excellent response to your question, but I wanted to post a link to an article that I read by a guy named Hal Miller who is a part of NTRF (a homechurch organization). This article really helped me in understanding the verses you mentioned in Hebrews.

http://www.ntrf.org/articles/article_detail.php?PRKey=3

[Guest]

Thanks! My name is actually Josh. I was just thanking Christopher for starting the thread.

[Guest]

Rae,
Thanks again for the article. I finally had a chance to read it and I really appreciated it. It will be good fuel for further study. I'm almost totally in agreement with it from where I stand, there are just a few small details I need to investigate a bit more.

Here's one quote that really stood out to me:

Unfortunately, we nearly always avoid the force of this disturbing teaching by transforming it into pious rhetoric. We style ourselves as "servants" but act just like the kings of the Gentiles in exercising authority. Yet even the kings of the Gentiles try to make their authority palatable by legitimating it with pious rhetoric; this is why they call themselves "benefactors." So how are we any different? If we are to live like Jesus’ followers, we need to take seriously his insight that leaders are as children and slaves, those without authority.