Gregg vs. Keller?

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dorianleigh
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Re: Gregg vs. Keller?

Post by dorianleigh » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:19 pm

Hi Michelle,

Do you always hide behind sarcasm, or were you asking a sincere question?? Wow! Please be careful with sarcasm, it can be deceptive and hurtful.....

We all process information differently. Based upon your one sentence post, it appears as though you process with few words?? If you view "many words" as an indication of "attempting to convince" perhaps your experiences with online forums is more extensive than mine?

Just an FYI, my personal learning method requires "many words," so if that doesn't work for you, I encourage you to avoid my posts and stick to the one liners...... LOL

God Bless and thanks for sharing! Oh, I tried to use as few words as possible, it was extremely challenging though.... LOL

dorianleigh
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Re: Gregg vs. Keller?

Post by dorianleigh » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:58 pm

Hey Brother Steve,

There is so much I could say about this, but I would have the wrong motive . Everything the Bible and the Spirit tell me about this subject is in complete disagreement with your view, so I'll just pray for both of us to have the truth revealed to our hearts.

I will however, pose some questions for introspection to you? How many times have you debated with a person and admitted that you were wrong and they were right? Do you believe you already have all the truth, or is there some left for the rest of us to give you? When you invite someone to disagree with you, is your motive to "convince them that your view is correct?" Or is your motive to learn from them and therefore be corrected yourself? How many times have you told a caller that what they shared has changed your view and the Lord used them to show you where you were lacking in truth? Are you publically teachable? Do you stutter when trying to say the words, "I was wrong?" When you debate, are you more concerned with saving face, or saving grace? Do you believe there are areas where you are deceived? Do you believe that when God looks down, He is searching for people with knowledge, or looking for His son in them? Does God call the equipped or equip the called?

Rather than presenting you with more evidence against debate, where I could be accused by Michelle, of "trying to convince", and by yourself for "having a penchant for debate", I'll plant a few more seeds and receive the seeds you planted.

What if Jesus decided that the Roman soldiers needed to be "shown the truth" that He was indeed the son of God and refused to surrender to His death on the cross? He was God and therefore had the power to keep from being crucified and instead hold a public debate to "get to the truth?" He even had the power to open their blind eyes, which was clearly an unfair advantage in terms of debating "skills." If Jesus decided to hold this debate and win, it would have caused you and I eternal death. HMMMM, is God trying to tell us there are better ways to get to the truth?

I'm trusting the Lord to reveal the truth to all of us, in His time and in His way. We are both now accountable to the Lord for the views we've received from each other.

I'm sad for unbelievers to see the competition, strife and arguing between believers.

Phil 2:1-3

1If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be LIKEMINDED, having the same love, BEING OF ONE ACCORD, OF ONE MIND
3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

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mattrose
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Re: Gregg vs. Keller?

Post by mattrose » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:03 pm

What word would you like to use for 2 Christians who have differing opinions discussing the issue in a Christlike way?

If the word 'debate' just has an inherently negative connotation for you, then it is probably no use trying to change your mind on the actual meaning of that term.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Christians should quarrel and fight with each other. And if you're suggesting that Steve is a combative personality based solely on his statement that he 'won' the debate, then you are barking up the wrong tree. You should probably get to know Steve's ministry a little better before you assume such things. Not only is Steve a 'Christlike' debater, but he's quite willing (and has) changed his views on a number of issues when better information came along.

dorianleigh
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Re: Gregg vs. Keller?

Post by dorianleigh » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:15 pm

Hi mattrose,

Thanks for sharing!

In terms of believers sharing differing opinions in a Christlike way, I believe it is more about the actions of not doing it in a Christlike way, rather than the "word" you call it. It is not that the word has a negative connotation to me, it is the Bible which speaks against both the word and the event. Perhaps you should take that one up with the Lord??

I'm not "suggesting" anything about Steve's personality and I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend him? Are you following Jesus or Steve? I think Steve is capable of speaking for himself and the fact that you feel the need to rescue him is of great concern to me. Do you believe that Steve is not strong enough to stand up for himself? It seems that if you truly believed that Steve was correct in his view of debates, you wouldn't need to jump on his side? Does he need groupies to convince and intimidate the people who dare to speak against his view? If so, is what he is saying truly from the Lord, or from Steve?

It seems that people on this website are in fear of confronting Steve? Is this forum filled with Steve followers who are "yes" people and feel the need to rescue him when he is being challenged? If so, Steve is being done a disservice. I would like to see more people stand up and speak truth to Steve, because he is deceived in as many areas as the rest of us.

I know that when I've been listening to Steve argue with people on the radio, if he can't convince a person to come around to his way of thinking, he ends the call. He even said on one program, "this is MY show" in his attempts to control the conversation. That was hugely concerning to me, because the show does not belong to him and in fact is supported by the listeners so his role is to be a servant, which was clearly not displayed that day. I have heard Steve become angry when he isn't able to convince someone and he seems to thrive on the people who seek his advice and compliment him. Is that why this site seems to be controlled by Steve followers? Does he send the message that he wants to be viewed as the man with all the right answers and if anyone dares to give him truth in the areas he is deceived, they are alienated and his "yes" people come to his rescue?

I also read a post from someone who was obviously frustrated because they said every time they post something confronting Steve, their post is removed? I also saw all the Steve rescuers swarm in to attack the person. I hope that there are still some people on here who are not afraid of Steve's disapproval. I would say that so far, I feel extremely unwelcome on this site as I suspect most Non-Steve followers have also felt and have left.

It appears as though the only way to be liked on this site is to stop pulling away the curtain from the wizard of the Narrow Path and exposing that he is just like the rest of us?

Please be careful about accusing people of "assuming" anything until you know for sure that is what they are doing. Your knee jerk reaction to keep the curtain in front of the wizard, speaks volumes.

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mattrose
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Re: Gregg vs. Keller?

Post by mattrose » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:20 pm

Wow, you are a very confrontational person. You also seem to have a habit of assuming the worst about your fellow posters. To be honest, I didn't make it past the 2nd paragraph of your most recent post. It seems every post I've read of yours today is some sort of attack.

Do you have an axe to grind?

The fact that you are totally against strife and yet seem to be looking for a fight is strange indeed.

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backwoodsman
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Re: Gregg vs. Keller?

Post by backwoodsman » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:47 pm

Wow.

I spent more time than I could afford today on replies to a couple of Dorian's posts, but before posting them I reloaded this page and read that last one. Talk about pulling the curtain away... whew! So much for the idea that there might still be hope of having some sort of coherent two-way communication with her.

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steve
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Re: Gregg vs. Keller?

Post by steve » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:32 pm

I also read a post from someone who was obviously frustrated because they said every time they post something confronting Steve, their post is removed?
Yes, I saw that post also. It is at http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &sk=t&sd=a (scroll down, it is in large print). I do not know the poster, and do not remember having seen any of his/her other posts, which were allegedly deleted. I don't even know what subjects the poster likes to discuss, since no subject was specified in this post. However, I did not get the impression (as you suggested) that the deleted posts were confrontational to me, since the poster seemed to say he/she liked me well enough, but disliked some of my regular callers.

The poster alleged that people are not permitted, at this forum, to discuss what's "REALLY" on their minds (I don't know what subjects are meant), and implied that posts of a certain kind (I am not sure what kind) are in danger of being deleted when posted here.

I was perplexed by this post, since I have almost never deleted anyone's posts at this forum (notice that yours are not being deleted)—unless they were obscene or just plain nasty. Even with the latter, we usually let them sit in their own fumes, rather than to delete them.

However, even that poster does not suggest (as you do) that I generally cut callers short who disagree with me. In fact, his/her complaint is that Michael (a Buddhist) and Stan (a Messianic Jew), both of whom frequently call to disagree with me, are given too much freedom to continue their arguments after the point when I should have cut them off (very different from your complaint).

I think you may be imagining things. For example, you say that a poster who confronted me was deleted. I am not aware of any case where this happened. The poster you mentioned did not confront me, nor was he/she deleted. If he/she had previous posts deleted, what makes you think that they were confrontational, or that I was the one who deleted them? Then you say the Steve-supporters rallied to my defense. I can find no examples of this in the thread. Who do you think came to my defense? And what charge was I being defended against? I can find no correlation between what is on this forum and what you describe as being here. Could you point out specifics?

Dorian, you say that you have heard, when people disagree with me, that I bring their calls to an end. Maybe you have not listened long enough to notice a regular feature of the program, namely, that I bring all the calls to an end, whether they agree with me or not. That is because we can only take one call at a time, and others are waiting. I try to get the caller off the line as soon as he or she has had the opportunity to say what they called to say, and then to move on to the next caller waiting.

In 14 years of doing the show daily, I have never previously heard anyone complain that I cut-off callers too soon who disagree, but I continually get emails from people complaining that I let people ramble on and on, who just want to argue or present an alternative view. This makes me think that the problem with the program may actually be the opposite of what your are suggesting.

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Homer
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Re: Gregg vs. Keller?

Post by Homer » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:23 pm

Hi dorianleigh,
I would ask those who participate in debates if they ever practice this behavior in order to come around to the other person's perspective and have admitted publically doing so, therefore "losing" in order to win?
I do not think very many people enter into debates because they think their opinion is wrong and needs to be corrected. If they did they would not hold it as an opinion, would they? I must confess that on the issue of the meaning of forgiveness we had a discussion on this forum of considerable length that I participated in. There is not much of Christian behavior more important this. I started out advocating one position and something Michelle wrote opened my eyes and I realized I was in error. I promptly switched sides in the discussion and am glad to this day for the "correction" that occured in a "debate" among multiple people.

You do believe there can be a debate among multiple people, don't you? What would you call the council at Jerusalem, Acts 15? Seems to me the Apostles were led by the Spirit into the truth, Through their "debate", for which we ought to praise God.

The fact of there being a disagreement and discussion of differing views in order to come to the truth is not the problem. Whether it is done in love is the issue.

My wife and I are less than a month from our 52nd anniversary. We have had many "debates" but we love one another. And I am very glad for some of the ones I have lost. It benefitted both of us.
It seems that people on this website are in fear of confronting Steve? Is this forum filled with Steve followers who are "yes" people and feel the need to rescue him when he is being challenged? If so, Steve is being done a disservice. I would like to see more people stand up and speak truth to Steve, because he is deceived in as many areas as the rest of us.
All I can say is you haven't been here long and read much.

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Sean
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Re: Gregg vs. Keller?

Post by Sean » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:33 am

dorianleigh wrote:

It seems that people on this website are in fear of confronting Steve? Is this forum filled with Steve followers who are "yes" people and feel the need to rescue him when he is being challenged? If so, Steve is being done a disservice. I would like to see more people stand up and speak truth to Steve, because he is deceived in as many areas as the rest of us.

I know that when I've been listening to Steve argue with people on the radio, if he can't convince a person to come around to his way of thinking, he ends the call. He even said on one program, "this is MY show" in his attempts to control the conversation. That was hugely concerning to me, because the show does not belong to him and in fact is supported by the listeners so his role is to be a servant, which was clearly not displayed that day. I have heard Steve become angry when he isn't able to convince someone and he seems to thrive on the people who seek his advice and compliment him. Is that why this site seems to be controlled by Steve followers? Does he send the message that he wants to be viewed as the man with all the right answers and if anyone dares to give him truth in the areas he is deceived, they are alienated and his "yes" people come to his rescue?
I'm wondering if your concern is based on Steve's radio program alone or if you have spent time here on the forum reading through old posts? Steve has been criticized for allowing people to post here who hold to what is generally considered unorthodox views. In other words, other forums wouldn't even allow these people to post at all. And you say people here are afraid to confront him? Can you explain some of the areas Steve is deceived?
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

steve7150
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Re: Gregg vs. Keller?

Post by steve7150 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:30 am

It seems that people on this website are in fear of confronting Steve? Is this forum filled with Steve followers who are "yes" people and feel the need to rescue him when he is being challenged? If so, Steve is being done a disservice. I would like to see more people stand up and speak truth to Steve, because he is deceived in as many areas as the rest of us.



You seem to jump to conclusions very quickly and act 180 degrees different than how you advise other Christians to act. Steve has been challenged by various people , for example just check the thread on Jesus re Divorce . I have differed with him about Israel (still do) , Homer has argued about views on hell and there have been plenty of others.

It seems like your idea of answering folks is to attack immediately like accusing one of sarcasm another of a need to defend Steve, everyone here of being yes men. I hope this is not based on hearing from the Holy Spirit because scripture is not on your side.

This forum is more open minded then any i've seen, for example i was on Crosswalk.com and i was banned for talking about, just the possibility of Christian Universalism. As you can plainly see here you can attack Steve and everyone else on the forum yet you are still here , free to attack again if you wish but i hope you decide to engage more and attack a lot less.

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