10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

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steve7150
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Re: 10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

Post by steve7150 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:35 am

Until we (U.S. backed by its western partners) kicked off retaliatory wars the region had a stability to it which we ruined. We opened up the opportunities which allowed ISIS to almost eradicate the entire church from certain areas. Furthermore, the revelation of our torturous treatment of prisoners greatly empowered ISIS to recruit more fighters to aid them in such eradication. Treatments that Trump supports.







The reason the area had any stability was because Dictators ruled Iraq and several other countries with an Iron fist. We foolishly thought we were freeing the populous for democracy except for Afganistan which was retaliatory. ISIS regularly beheads people and burns them alive so comparing this to a limited amount of torture we were involved with and is long ago over is simply making excuses for them. Torture and killing is part of Islam , it needs no encouragement.

BTW Hillary has a long record as a military hawk and if she currently changed her tune it's only to get elected now.

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Homer
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Re: 10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

Post by Homer » Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:50 am

Hi Paidion,

You appear to have overlooked a significant part of what I wrote:
And it is His agent as long as it is fulfilling the purpose He has established for government
Wurmbrand's torturers were not fulfilling God's will (his purpose).

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Homer
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Re: 10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

Post by Homer » Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:58 am

Hi Jaydam,

You asked:
Is an entity righteous just because God is using it as his agent, as a conduit for his will?
I would say the entity is righteous (depending on what is meant by "righteous") but the persons who are part of the entity might or might not be.

Is it your position that a Christian can not be in government, the police, or military? It seems to me a mayor, city manager, or city councilman, for example, would bear some responsibility for whatever actions are taken by the law enforcement personnel they have employed and directed.

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dizerner
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Re: 10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

Post by dizerner » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:43 am

Torture and killing is part of Islam , it needs no encouragement.
Stuff like this happens every day:

http://shoebat.com/2014/09/25/muslims-t ... urn-alive/

ISIS just makes the news.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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Paidion
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Re: 10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:14 pm

Homer wrote:Hi Paidion,

You appear to have overlooked a significant part of what I wrote:
And it is His agent as long as it is fulfilling the purpose He has established for government
Wurmbrand's torturers were not fulfilling God's will (his purpose).
Actually, I didn't overlook any part of what you wrote. I pointed out the Wurmbrand case as an example of a government that was not ordained by God. For I thought when you quoted...
Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
... that you were affirming what the verse appears to say, that every human government has been instituted by God. But perhaps I was mistaken. In stating the proviso, are you taking the position that there are some governments that were not ordained by God, such as Hitler's and that in Romania when Wurmbrand suffered there? If so, we agree.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: 10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

Post by Homer » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:40 pm

Hi Paidion,

It would take a bit more time to fully explain what I think Paul was saying but I essentially agree with you.

thrombomodulin
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Re: 10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

Post by thrombomodulin » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:34 pm

Homer,

One thing that I find difficult about Romans 13 is whether it authorizes a ruler to establish a territorial monopoly for the services he provides. What should a righteous ruler do if any group of citizens wishes to secede with the property and land that they own? Is such a secession a criminal act that deserves punishment thus making it appropriate for the righteous ruler to use violence (police or military) to prevent it? Or, should a ruler who wishes to act righteously let them go in peace?

Thanks
Pete

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Homer
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Re: 10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

Post by Homer » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:57 pm

Hi Pete,

Difficult question. First I will say a bit about my view of God's ordaining civil government.

Romans 13:1-4 (NASB)

1. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established (Grk. tasso) by God. 2. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4. for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

The Greek word tasso refers to appointing, arranging, placing in order, etc. And exousia is the word translated "authority" or "power". So God arranged or placed positions of authority over mankind. We see in verse 4 that their purpose is to do good. It does not exist for its own sake but for that of the citizens by, primarily, protecting citizens from harm from unjust treatment by others. I do not believe government is legitimate that does no perform its God ordained purpose. Hitler is a good example of this. He murdered a great many of those he should have been protecting. He was illegitimate and I do not think it wrong to overthrow him.

Do you see Bonhoeffer as a martyr, criminal, or something else?

Interestingly Jesus appointed twelve Apostles and the scriptures inform us he gave to them authority (exousia). Yet one of the twelve (Judas) became an illegitimate Apostle. God did use him, however, so God might also use a bad ruler for a purpose, the Babylonians, for example.

Now let's say there is a good government that is fulfilling God's purpose. Lets also say some people want complete freedom from government rules regarding morality, rules that prohibit harm to others. I would say in that case those who want to secede have no right to do so and the legitimate government has the right to use force to prevent their secession.

thrombomodulin
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Re: 10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

Post by thrombomodulin » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:23 pm

Homer,

Thank you for your reply and further explanation of your view.

I would like to ask if your answer would change if the condition of "Lets also say some people want complete freedom from government rules regarding morality, rules that prohibit harm to others." were removed? For my intention in raising this question was to ask about situations where the motivation of those who are seceding is not tarnished by evil intentions. Consider that those who are seceding could have plans to establish a new ruler over themselves, or plans to defect and join another ruler who is already reigning over others. Any number of wholesome and honorable reasons could be offered for the motivations of those who are seceding - I could provide some hypothetical examples to clarify if necessary.

My own answer to the question I raised is that a ruler who wishes to act righteously should permit anyone, who wishes to secede from him, to leave in peace - but this results in a serious problem. If any group, however large or small, is free to secede then the State as we define it (an institution providing security on a compulsory basis) cannot exist. This makes the classification of each man into one of the two categories of those who are rulers and those who are ruled difficult or impossible. Wherever that distinction destroyed the approach that Steve Gregg uses of affirming that there are different instructions for these two groups cannot work (e.g. Romans 13:4 vs. Romans 12:19-21). I really wish it were not so, but I have been unable to escape the conclusion that the bible offers contradictory instructions to Bonhoeffer's situation: On one hand he may follow Romans 13:4 and regard himself as the God appointed authority and Hitler as an enemy and criminal to be destroyed, and on the other he could have followed Romans 12:19 and simply shown love to Hitler despite the fact that many would lose their life unjustly.

I believe that the question of secession that I am raising reveals that views of Romans 13 which permit Christian's to participate in the State are also subject to the same problem. The reason I believe this is true is that there are at least some situations where identifying which ruler is the valid authority over any particular person cannot be resolved in definite way. I would greatly appreciate if you or anyone else could point out the error in my reasoning.

Thanks,
Pete

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Paidion
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Re: 10/25 Afternoon show - Re: voting

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:28 pm

If my understanding of Bonhöfer's story is correct, he didn't, with a group of supporters, wish to secede from the Nazi government. Rather he believed that God had shown him that he must kill Hitler. When his plan was foiled, he was imprisoned. His captors hanged him on April 4, 1945. Just three days later, the allies crossed the Rhine River, and a month later, on May 7, 1945, Hitler committed suicide. If Bonhöfer had just waited, Hitler would have soon died anyway, wouldn't he have? So it appears that Bonhöfer was mistaken in thinking God wanted him to kill Hitler. Or WAS he? What do YOU think?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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