Revelation Fixation

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dwilkins
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Re: Revelation Fixation

Post by dwilkins » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:26 pm

I was hoping that you'd give us a list, but not so that I could address them individually. I'm sure you do know how each of the verses are handled individually by full preterists. What I wanted to point out was that the list, compared to the rest of prophetic scripture (up to 1/3 of scripture depending on who you ask) is actually incredibly small. My point was going to be one of comparison by size and scope, not necessarily to argue the details of each one.

I assume that you have a dozen or maybe 18 scriptures, probably a paragraph or two each buried in a larger partial preterist argument, that you think point to the second coming, which in your Amillennial approach is usually looked at as the time of the end, or the end of time. Assuming that you have maybe 20 paragraphs of material, that it is disputed and so at least somewhat arguable or ambiguous, and that the imagery is anchored in ancient imagery or themes, do you think it matches with the modus operandi of God to rely on such a small sample of anachronistic warnings for such an important event as the modern end of the universe? The Old Testament has more than a dozen books that address the punishment of Judah by the Babylonians. They weren't completely destroyed, and probably fewer than 1,000,000 people were killed in all of the associated fighting. Eventually, they were restored, so that their end wasn't permanent. God saw fit to give this much warning for a relatively irrelevant historical event. Don't you think that God, if he doesn't change his modus operandi in dealing with men, owes it to them to give at least a few decades of unambiguous, authenticated warning if he is going to end the existence of 7 billion people, not to mention the whole universe? If he were to warn those people in some reasonably similar scale as everyone that he has ever judged, I think that he'd have to provide thousands of certified prophets (through bona fide miracles and such), and do so through thousands of additional books of prophecy. If he were to do so, how would we authenticate this new scripture? Or, maybe he is going to completely change his precedent for this one last event.

I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that God would destroy the world without giving people at least a similar chance as the one that everyone in the past has always gotten. Unless, of course, you're going to say that a dozen and a half or so paragraphs of disputed material written 2,000 years ago will suffice.

Doug

dwilkins
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Re: Revelation Fixation

Post by dwilkins » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:12 am

I forgot to answer your resurrection question. I'll try to get to it when I get home tonight.

Doug

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RickC
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Re: Revelation Fixation

Post by RickC » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:14 am

Frequent reader.
Seldom poster.

Brief comment on those preterists who think the NT is essentially irrelevant for us today. But first a preliminary on 'labels'.

About 10 years ago (and earlier) Dee Dee Warren, the former full preterist, now partial preterist, was arguing that full preterists should be referred to as 'hyper-preterists' in order to distinguish them from 'orthodox partial preterists'.

In my studies of the topic, the term 'hyper-preterist' is now widely used by full preterists to label the above mentioned preterists who do not believe the NT has relevance for us today. This camp is a minority. My guesstimation would be no more than 2%.

Just saying, thanks!

dwilkins
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Re: Revelation Fixation

Post by dwilkins » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:53 pm

To add to Rick's point, there is a group of self described hyper preterists generally led by Chris Camillo who believe that salvation was only for Israel descendant though Jacob, that the regional God of Israel did in fact save the faithful remnant of them in 70AD, and that no one else is going to be "saved" in human history. If no one else is going to be saved, then obviously Biblical advice on how to live is pointless for modern humans.

This position is rejected by those who describe themselves as Full Preterists. Full Preterists believe that, through a few different explanations or mechanism, modern people are saved and resurrected just like those in 70AD who were alive when the resurrection out of Hades happened. All of the Full Preterists I know have no problem embracing traditional Christian moral values and base this on advice given in scripture. In other words, the principles behind the advice in scripture sill apply to us, though they only directly applied to the first century, and in some cases this can tweak the principle we are talking about.

I was going to do the resurrection response here, but I'm out of time.

Doug

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robbyyoung
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Revelation Fixation

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:53 pm

dwilkins wrote:All of the Full Preterists I know have no problem embracing traditional Christian moral values and base this on advice given in scripture. In other words, the principles behind the advice in scripture sill apply to us, though they only directly applied to the first century, and in some cases this can tweak the principle we are talking about.
Hi Doug,

I most definitely agree with you here, but I would add "The Events" also applied to the 1st Century. However, post AD70, wooden literalism of Hebrew dialect, like a hypnotic drug, captivated follow-on believers to assign such events into their perpetual future, and as such; disappointment inevitably every time :?

I also thoroughly enjoyed your "modus operandi of God" response to Steve. :D

God Bless.

dwilkins
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Re: Revelation Fixation

Post by dwilkins » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:35 pm

So, to answer your question about resurrection, in Full Preterist circles there are two main views. The first is the corporate body view (CBV). The second is the immortal body at death view (IBD). There are some who try to make the definition fit 100% for either category, but most people would stipulate that it's at least a 90/10 mix when looking at all of the relevant scripture.

The CBV, which Preston holds to, says that resurrection imagery in scripture is based on national destiny. So, in the valley of the dry bones, where the image is of the nation being brought back to life (along with numerous passages in Hosea), we are simply seeing a promise that the nation will rise up out of the ashes at "the end". They will say that there is indeed some sort of individual experience in heaven. But, they will push back on saying that most resurrection passages talk about this.

The IBD view says that resurrection primarily refers to receiving an immortal, individual body at the moment of resurrection. They would say that no one fully received this promise before the resurrection in 70AD. But, since 70AD people are resurrected at death instead of waiting in Hades for the final judgment. Some IBD followers believe in a literal rapture as described most thoroughly by Ed Stevens. Some do not believe in a literal rapture, but still expect to be issued an immortal, individual body at death.

There are a few newer names for these positions that I've seen, but the traditional names are close enough for our purposes.

I am in the IBD camp. Therefore, I think that individuals were waiting in Hades after death while waiting for the resurrection prior to 70AD (if the resurrection didn't happen in 70AD, this is still the status quo). At some point in the fall of 70AD, probably associated with the Feast of Trumpets, the resurrection of the dead from Hades occurred. After this, there was a judgment simultaneous to the celebration of the Day of Atonement in the Jewish calendar, and then the kingdom of God came into being in full force with the celebration of the Feast of Booths. Since that bulk resurrection from Hades, individuals who die in history from now are skip going to Hades as an intermediate state and immediately receive their resurrection bodies at death. These individual, physical bodies are made from pneumas (or spirit) and are suited for heaven, which is our eternal abode.

Though we've been through this a half dozen times, I assume that at this point Paidon will weigh in calling this gnostic. He is wrong for several reasons. First, his definition of gnosticism is completely out of date and therefore fundamentally flawed. Second, gnosticism as a system demanded some sort of acceptance of their mythology, which I completely reject. Third, because the cosmology that my view is based on assumes the definition of pneumas according to Stoicism instead of Platonism, my understanding of a body of pneumas is a physical one. So, no one is "disembodied". They are in an individual, physical body made of pneumas. This was the cosmology generally accepted in Paul's day, and all of his writings follow this paradigm. When the Neoplatonists started to become dominant about 100 years after Paul they redefined pneumas to be paranormal, immaterial, and unreal. They also required that material creation was in some way polluted and evil, so that true perfection could not be physical in any way. The gnostics started to develop their theology in an era where Neoplatonism was dominant, so their definition of a spiritual body follows this paradigm. But, since I recognize that Paul was not talking in vocabulary that matched up with their model of physics, and I try to define my position as closely to what Paul would have meant as possible, it is quite impossible for anything I'm saying to be gnostic.

I hope that answers your question.

Doug

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robbyyoung
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Re: Revelation Fixation

Post by robbyyoung » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:03 pm

steve wrote:Whatever Paul may mean by "the present distress", in 1 Corinthians 7:26, is unclear. I do not know why the destruction of Jerusalem, more than a decade away from the time of writing, would present any "present" crisis in Greek churches. I think something else must be in view.
Hi Steve,

What's in view is the present persecution by The Jews and unfolding events leading to the Neronic persecution on the horizon in about 6 years! Paul even confirms, three verses later, the words spoken by Yeshua, that THEY were in the midst of THE DAYS BEING SHORTEN; 1 Cor 7:29 parallels Matt 24:22!

Everything is fast approaching its end, to include all Apostolic writings in 64 AD. Ed Stevens did a wonderful job chronicling the final decade before the end; which is the title of his book - subtitled Jewish and Christian History Just Before the Jewish Revolt.

It's a worthy study for any student of scripture regardless of one's eschatological differences.

God Bless.
Last edited by robbyyoung on Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RickC
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Re: Revelation Fixation

Post by RickC » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:54 pm

It looks like the conversation has shifted toward preterism. (Another thread could be started, if need be, I'm sure). If you/he sees this and has time . . . .
On page one, Steve wrote:My belief is that neither the Corinthians nor the Thessalonians experienced any particular crises in connection with the fall of Jerusalem, and that the things Paul wrote to them related to local issues in each of their towns, unrelated to the approach of AD 70.
CORINTH

As to "the present crisis" of 1 Cor 7:26, several possible interpretations have been given ('unknown', famine, war, etc.).

1 Cor 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none . . . .

If I'm understanding you correctly, you think that whatever the 'soon to come crisis' was, it was local only to Corinth?
______________________

THESSALONICA

Paul's history in Thessalonica was a rough one. They ran him out of town and chased him to the next.

In his Thessalonian letters, Paul strongly emphasized that the believers who were being persecuted would be justified. That the wrath of God was already on the persecutors. (No need to cite all of the the relevant texts, but here's one):

1 Thess 2 (NASB)
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.


It seems Paul sees a connection between the believers in Jerusalem (i.e., Judeans) and the believers in Thessalonica.

1 Thess 5 (NASB)
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;


I've not read or heard that Paul was essentially 'quoting Jesus' here (ref. cit., Olivet Discourse), but I've felt that he was; that this was the earliest written reference to Jesus' teachings from the Mount of Olives.

Final Q: Do I correctly understand that you think Paul's Thessalonican letters addressed local issues only? Another way of asking this would be: Though Paul seemingly directly quoted Jesus, did he believe there would be one Day of The Lord for Jerusalem and another for Thessalonica? One fulfilled in 70AD, the other some time in the very distant future?

Thanks, if you have time to reply!

StevenD
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Re: Revelation Fixation

Post by StevenD » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:08 pm

The Old Testament has more than a dozen books that address the punishment of Judah by the Babylonians. They weren't completely destroyed, and probably fewer than 1,000,000 people were killed in all of the associated fighting. Eventually, they were restored, so that their end wasn't permanent. God saw fit to give this much warning for a relatively irrelevant historical event.

I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that God would destroy the world without giving people at least a similar chance as the one that everyone in the past has always gotten. Unless, of course, you're going to say that a dozen and a half or so paragraphs of disputed material written 2,000 years ago will suffice.
As one who rarely post comments I don't want to interrupt the rhythm of this exchange; yet, the above comments provoked a brief response. (I'm interested in reading Steve's response after he returns from Hawaii.)

Did the bulk of prophetic testimony that forecasted the Babylonian captivity merely warn the Judeans of the tragedy of provincial judgment? It appears to me that these warnings were directly linked to God's larger redemptive strategy. The validity of the patriarchal promises as well as other predictive features of Moses’ book might seem questionable (cf. Gen. 49:8-12, esp. v. 10; Num. 24:7-9, 14, 17ff; also all of the promises regarding the promised seed—Gen. 12:3; 18:18b; 22:18a; 26:4b; 28:14b]) had the Babylonian exile and siege not been anticipated by Moses.

On the other hand, despite bleak circumstances the prophets confirmed that the exile and demolition of the First Temple would involve only a limited interruption in service. Although the judgment involved a temporary breach in the cycle of governmental and cultic tasks, neither the royal seed nor the Aaronic line of priests would cease (Jer. 22:24-23:8; 33:14ff; Ezek. 21:26-27; probably Hos. 3 and others) until God fulfilled his promise in ratifying the new covenant.

Quite a bit more could be said here, but the Almighty granted hope to the exiles that his promises were still being fulfilled. Thus, the varying stages which prompted the inauguration of the Kingdom of God do strike me as significant prophetic milestones. To the contrary, from what I can tell the integrity of God’s promises is not at stake concerning the time of the end of the world as we know it.

-sd

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