The Good shepherd.

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john316yes
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The Good shepherd.

Post by john316yes » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:32 pm

Does God protect his Sheep? If you leave God and never come back it was becuase God did not protect you. If you leave and come back it is becuase God is your shepherd.
If you are God's sheep and belong to God you can be confident in Psalms 23.

"The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.


Second, if God does not protect his sheep: call their name, guide them with his staff and rod, council them , comfort them, protect them, how could God be the good shepherd?

For instance, if you sin, break God's law, wonder away and never come back, its probably becuase Jesus never called you. You are not his sheep. It sounds harsh to me too, but if somebody completly leaves Jesus to chase after the world. You have to ask, was that persons heart ever changed? Judas heart was not changed. He followed Jesus for three years, but he was a thief and cared nothing for the poor, he stole from the money bag. His heart was never changed. Jesus also called him a devil. And the Son of Perdition. Satan also entered his heart. Jesus didnt protect him. Judas was not his sheep. However, he protected Peter. The devil tried to sift Peter as wheat but failded becuase Jesus prayed for him. Jesus did not pray for Judas. Judas may have followed Jesus but was never truly God's sheep.

"“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

John 10

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dizerner
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Re: The Good shepherd.

Post by dizerner » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:53 pm

So Judas had no free choice of his own to reject Jesus Christ? If Judas had no free self-determination to reject Jesus Christ, then God caused Judas to reject Christ. But God also deliberately called Judas to be one of the 12 apostles, and give Judas the same promises and power the other apostles got. So God deliberately deceived everyone into thinking Judas was one of the 12 apostles, when he never was even a true sheep.

Do you think God could be deliberately deceiving you in thinking you are a sheep, when in reality you will turn out to be a Judas? How can you know that's not God's plan for you, when outwardly you can't tell the difference? Perhaps God has elected you to think you are saved and a sheep, but after a time to fall away as a vessel of reprobation and damnation.

Do you see how Calvinism doesn't offer any real security, but Arminianism does? Because God says in the Holy Word, that our choices are, by definition, something we can control. They are not crazy random slot machines which we never know the result of. They are our choices. Whoever calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved. Whoever freely wills can come and drink of the water of life. Whoever follows Christ can be loved and protected by Him. No one anywhere is banned or barred or prohibited or restricted from following Christ by the elective damnation of God.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

john316yes
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Re: The Good shepherd.

Post by john316yes » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:40 am

John says that when Jesus was praying that he said, "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." John 17

Jesus also said that not everyone who calls him Lord Lord will inherit the kingdom of God. So we know that a confession by itself is not enough to save somebody. Like PAul said, prove your repentance by the things you do. Judas proved over and over and with claims from Jesus that he was a devil, that he was never saved. No repentance. Not saved.

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dizerner
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Re: The Good shepherd.

Post by dizerner » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:46 am

john316yes wrote:Judas proved over and over and with claims from Jesus that he was a devil, that he was never saved. No repentance. Not saved.
Did Judas prove that, or did God force Judas to prove that? When Jesus looked Judas in the eye and said "If you abide in my Word, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free," was he lying to Judas? Was Jesus thinking "Except you Judas, you have no free choice at all, and I'm going to make sure you betray me no matter what." It was foreknowledge not a decree from God, by which Christ knew Judas would freely betray him.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

john316yes
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Re: The Good shepherd.

Post by john316yes » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:15 pm

Judas chose to betray Jesus. He chose to steal from the money bag. He didn't choose to be a devil. He didn't ask the devil to leap into his heart. He didn't choose to be the son of perdition. He didn't choose not to be prayed for by Jesus.

Last point, a saved person cannot be demon possessed; Judas was. A saved person cannot be a devil, Judas was. Jesus always prays for his people. Judas did not receive prayer from Jesus to persevere as Peter did.

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dizerner
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Re: The Good shepherd.

Post by dizerner » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:08 am

Last point, a saved person cannot be demon possessed; Judas was. A saved person cannot be a devil, Judas was. Jesus always prays for his people. Judas did not receive prayer from Jesus to persevere as Peter did.
Christ would not have denied him that prayer had he made the right choices.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

john316yes
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Re: The Good shepherd.

Post by john316yes » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:27 pm

The bad thing about that if your idea is true then Jesus does not pray for anybody. That idea is conditional love. Is your love conditional?

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dizerner
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Re: The Good shepherd.

Post by dizerner » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:57 pm

Is your love conditional?
John 3:16? Yes.

Christ never said you'd be saved if you don't believe, and he said whoever hears can believe. Faith is a real condition to receive a love that is not "unconditional" literally, because it has a very clear condition. When we say that God's love is "unconditional" we should mean that it is not conditional upon our own goodness but rather upon faith in the Cross. Consider the clear way Scripture lays out faith alone in grace alone as a choice offered to all who hear the Gospel, God does not remove our free will, this is nowhere taught in Scripture. That is why we can "receive the grace of God in vain," or resist or reject the grace of God. A gift is not less a gift just because it can be rejected. Judas said "No, I don't want that gift" and God did not force Judas to decide that. God is not the author of evil, but the free will of his creatures is the source of evil. God does not decree or force us to sin, that is nowhere taught in Scripture. It is calling good, evil, and evil as good, to say that God himself is the One who makes sin happen. It is blasphemous.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

john316yes
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Re: The Good shepherd.

Post by john316yes » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:32 am

Read this passage in Judges: Samson wanted a wife from outside his nation of Israel which according to this passage, looks like that choice was a sin. God still had plans for Samson and used this choice to accomplish his will.

But his father and mother said to him, “Is there not a woman among the daughters of your relatives, or among all our people, that you must go to take a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?” But Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she is right in my eyes.”
His father and mother did not know that it was from the LORD, for he was seeking an opportunity against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines ruled over Israel.

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dizerner
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Re: The Good shepherd.

Post by dizerner » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:15 am

john316yes wrote:Read this passage in Judges: Samson wanted a wife from outside his nation of Israel which according to this passage, looks like that choice was a sin. God still had plans for Samson and used this choice to accomplish his will.

But his father and mother said to him, “Is there not a woman among the daughters of your relatives, or among all our people, that you must go to take a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?” But Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she is right in my eyes.”
His father and mother did not know that it was from the LORD, for he was seeking an opportunity against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines ruled over Israel.
If you're going to attempt to use a Calvinistic interpretation of God using one person's sin to judge another person, why not go straight to their main text, the king of Assyria in Isaiah 10 being used as an axe against Israel. Somehow they think God using one person's sin to judge another person's sin, means that God is deliberating making them sin. This is a non-sequitur, that is, it does not logically follow from the premises. Or, they love the story of Joseph's brother, where Joseph says "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." They take this simple statement and extrapolate it to mean God deliberately initiates evil to accomplish his will. Surely God would prefer the brothers not to have sinned to accomplish his will. God is not so uncreative that he only wanted to use evil to get Joseph into Egypt. God allowed a sin to happen to Joseph and worked it for good, but this is no proof text to say God caused Joseph's brothers to sin. That's a non-sequitur—the conclusion does not logically follow the premises. Then the Calvinist goes on to their "Pièce de résistance," the evil of the suffering of Christ for our redemption, the greatest evil and injustice that ever took place. They say look it say the Pharisees and Romans did "whatever your hand foreordained should be accomplished." Somehow, they say, this proves God does evil things to accomplish his will. And I say, no. God did not manipulate nor force those Pharisees and Romans to sin. He foreknew and foresaw their sin, and used it to accomplish redemption. The Lord Jesus Christ did not look down at those Roman soldiers and say "Father forgive them... for what you made them do to me." He said "they know not what they do." They did, the soldiers did it. Then the Calvinists scrounge around in the Old Testament for Scriptures that might look like God authors evil. They come up with a couple: "I the Lord create the light and the darkness, create peace and evil." And this, they say, is a "death blow" to Arminianism. Even though evil is obviously the opposite of peace here, and the Lord constantly says he sends the evil of his judgements; there is no basis for thinking this means he is forcing people to sin. Then they have "the Lord even creates the wicked for the day of judgment." The Lord creates everything, so obviously he creates the wicked—but he doesn't create them wicked, they make themselves that way. Exactly as Scripture says "You were created blameless until the day iniquity was found in you." Then we get to the Calvinist's ultimate crown jewel, Romans 9. And oddly enough Calvinist's don't seem to realize the phrase "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" implies the man has a choice of whether or not to talk back. Otherwise it's just God talking back to himself, by forcing the man to talk back. And the whole imagery of the potter and the clay is hearkening back to Jeremiah's parable, where the clay itself became marred in the hands of a potter who had good intentions for the clay. Calvinism makes a mish-mash of Scriptural doctrine and attributes evil and iniquity to the pure, high, thrice holy, and perfect God. Sheer blasphemy.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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