Eternal security

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john316yes
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Eternal security

Post by john316yes » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:34 pm

Eternal security is a great doctrine to know. Steve does not think so. I think he is wrong. Here is a good way of looking at this doctrine. God is like a shepherd and people are like sheep. God's greatness is unexplainable and nobody can completely understand his ways and power for it is eternal. People are understandable, limited, and small. Compared to God, we are dumb sheep. Sheep are not as great as humans.

We need a good shepherd to take care of us. Christians stray from the flock in many ways: in their mind, in word, and in deed. God always brings us back to our senses. He works in us, Jesus lives in us and loves the Father. The Son never denied the Father and neither will we.

Any person who wondered away completely, never knew the shepherd and the shepherd never knew them. They may have been part of the flock, but they were never God's sheep. God has no obligation to bring them back because they are not God's. A person who call themselves a Christian and wonders off, were never in dwelt by the Spirit or Christ, or the Father. They were imposters. They left because they never loved Jesus.

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dizerner
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Re: Eternal security

Post by dizerner » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:50 pm

God has no obligation to bring them back because they are not God's.
When Christ said "whose image does this coin bear the resemblance of," what do you think he meant by that? Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's... and to God the things that are God's. We all bear the mark of our Creator. I don't think you can say "Here's a man who bears no image of God whatsoever in him." It is said God made all the race of men from one man to populate the earth. There is a sense in which God is the begetter of all men. How can Satan hurt God by corrupting men, if God himself wanted that corruption to happen? How can God ever experience sadness, if God always gets exactly what he wants? Calvinism really makes no logical or Biblical sense, and it's a doctrine born out of the insecurity and carnality of men, not the reverent study of Scripture. Under Calvinism no elect could ever be described as "lost." You are not lost if, as they preach, when Christ's work is done it is applied forever. Nor would God allow someone to be deceived into thinking they are elect, just to make their election to damnation worse. Scripture says if we believe we are saved, yet you want to judge a man's heart and say he never believed, when he himself says he did.
Any person who wondered away completely, never knew the shepherd and the shepherd never knew them.
That's a bold claim to make. One I don't think you can back up with Scripture or experience. It's an easy cop-out to support a doctrine constantly denied by real-life experience and constantly denied in Scripture as well. Did Satan never know God? It was said he was the anointed one who covered the holy place, and walked amidst the stones of fire on the holy mountain of God. When's the last time you had that on your resume? There's no indication in Scripture that if you fall away it absolutely means you never knew God.

I really believe Eternal Security, Perseverance of the Saints, and Once Saved-Always Saved is a doctrine born out of fear of our personal failings, and a way people try to misapply the principle of grace. If grace means nothing is required of us, then logically Calvinism must be true. God simply picks and chooses. But Scripture says multitudes are in the valley of decision, and whosoever wills. Obviously we have to be called we have to be drawn—but at any point can we trample on grace, resist grace, reject grace? You bet Scripture says we can. It doesn't logically follow that a gift is no longer a gift if you can reject it. Salvation and sanctification are gifts of grace, but just because they are not earned, does not mean they are not rejected. If we are saved by faith alone, through grace alone, then truly nothing can separate us from the love of God—nothing except rejecting that love of God in Christ Jesus. The Lord is very stern and clear about that in Scripture and we must not allow people to be deceived.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

john316yes
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Re: Eternal security

Post by john316yes » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:56 pm

Knowing God in a relationship and to know the attributes of God are different. Satan knows the attributes of God, but he does not have the heart for God. I know my co workers, but I don't know them as a friend, a family member or as a lover. For instance, Ill never know (thank God) another woman as I know my wife, that is, in sexual intimacy. False converts are lacking that kind of intimacy with God; they claim to have intimacy with God, but that's all it ever is, it is just a claim.

So Steve should learn from this, and change his mind.

john316yes
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Re: Eternal security

Post by john316yes » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:07 pm

God loves us unconditionally, if he loved us with conditions, we would all be dead. Do you love your spouse conditionally? of course not when things are bad or really bad, you continue to love with prayer. If your wife or husband does something wrong to you or mistreats you, does that give you a right to divorce NO! God is the same way, except he works in us and through to bring us to our senses.

"but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. ... and the evil one cannot touch him"
1john 5:18

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dizerner
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Re: Eternal security

Post by dizerner » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:22 pm

john316yes wrote:God loves us unconditionally, if he loved us with conditions, we would all be dead.
This is simply incorrect. If God loved us with the specific condition of our goodness or righteousness we would be dead. But the Bible is very clear that faith is a condition of salvation, and that faith is something done by an ungodly person, that then makes them godly be an act of grace (a new birth).
Satan knows the attributes of God, but he does not have the heart for God.
Who are you to say Satan never loved God. Satan was the lead worshiping archangel, and Scripture testifies this:

You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
God has no obligation to bring them back because they are not God's.
Calvinism has the very strange conclusion in its doctrine that God specifically created things for the sole purpose of hating them, making them evil, and destroying them. They will try to use the few verses they can find, such as "God creates the wicked for the day of evil," "God creates prosperity and evil," and "vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction." There's not much more than that to support the idea that God did not create things with good intention, and then the creation itself is the cause of the evil by its free disobedience to God's clear command. Yet Scripture is clear that created things have a choice, and choose their own destinies or the destinies of others they will affect. Without this freedom, God is simply setting up people to make them fail, and there is no good evidence for this in Scripture.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

Choosethisday
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Re: Eternal security

Post by Choosethisday » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:28 am

"If your wife or husband does something wrong to you or mistreats you, does that give you a right to divorce NO! God is the same way, except he works in us and through to bring us to our senses."

While a marriage should not be broken lightly there are points where one can, and at some point perhaps must, realize the other has broken the covenant. This doesn't mean they couldn't be reconciled but until then there is no marriage. With all of the analogies to marriage, not to mention the scripture supporting the Arminian position, it seems clear to me that indeed some believers do commit spiritual adultery and are no longer in a covenant relationship with God.

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Paidion
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Re: Eternal security

Post by Paidion » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:12 pm

Any person who wondered away completely, never knew the shepherd and the shepherd never knew them.
It's easy to make this statement, but is it made because it is taught in the Bible? Or is it made in order to support a doctrine?

In my late teens and early twenties, I believed in "eternal security". However, I actually meant "unconditional security". No matter what I did (so I believed) I was saved and could never become lost. "If you've been born again," I declared, "you can never become unborn." I thought it my ministry to convince all believers of the truth of "eternal security". Once in a Bible study group, one person asked me, "Where do you find that in the Bible?" In response I declared, "Why, you find it on every page!"

But you don't. Later when I was 25, I began to read second-century writers. I thought they would have been in a better position to understand the apostlic writings than we, 2000 years later. Those early writers "hit me right between the eyes." I repented of that false teaching.

But just to give you examples of people who were true believers and who turned away completely consider the following two cases:

The words of Jesus as recorded in Mark 16: 15,16
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved...

1. Simon the Magician:
Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. (Acts 8:13 NKJV)

Yet, Simon went back to what he had been before he believed. He went around again declaring himself to be God, and took with him a woman whom he said that he, as God, had begotten. After his death, a roman official erected a statue to his honour, with the inscription "To the Great God, Simon."

2. Charles Templeton
This man was Billy Graham's fellow evangelist. Through his preaching, hundreds of people came to Christ. There's no doubt that he was a true Christian.
But one day he came to Billy, and said, "Billy, I'm going to stop preaching. I am no longer a Christian."
Billy Graham didn't give up on him. He visited him and urged him to turn again to Christ. He said to Billy, "I really appreciate what you're trying to do, but I just don't believe that stuff any more. Later Charles wrote a book entitled: "Farewell to God". He continued in unbelief until his death.
""
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

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