Bad Theology

Discuss topics raised by callers on the radio program
john316yes
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm

Bad Theology

Post by john316yes » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:28 am

The other day Steve said that the people who were given to the Son by the Father were the remnant Jews. That is incorrect. Steve is not considering correct grammar. Grammar should be a guide to correct interpretation. Look at John 6:37. When Jesus spoke to this great crowd in Capranum, he spoke plainly:

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" John 6 :37

** All ** This word is an idefinate pronoun. It does not refer to any specific person. Where in the wild world of Sports do you get the Jews? "All" does not refer to any specific person. That is what indefinate pronouns do.

** Whoever** This is another pronoun it does refer to any specific person. The word Whoever points to the first part of the sentence: All that the Father gives will come to me.

So in conclusion we can say: There are many types of people from all nations that will believe in Jesus. The people who believe in Jesus are the very ones who were called or drawn by the Father and given to Jesus. These people came to Jesus becuase the Father changed their hearts or shined his light into their hearts. He said let their be light and there was light in their hearts to see the truth. The LOrd Jesus will neve throw them out of the Kingdom.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3338
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Bad Theology

Post by steve » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:31 pm

Jesus said that the ones that the Father had given to Him were already God's people (John 17:6). This is in the past tense. The people who had been God's people were the faithful among the Jews. If this is "bad theology" it is, at least, good exegesis.

john316yes
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm

Re: Bad Theology

Post by john316yes » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:17 pm

Steve, in my opinnion, has misrepresented the verses.

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message" John 17:20

When Jesus prayed for us American Christians; that is , me, I can conclude that I was one of those people who were given to Jesus by the Father. Steve has ignored context and grammar. For instance, he says: "May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." Who are they? The ones who will believe. So obviously, with the Apostles, as he has been saying, Eveyone, including us believing American Christians are not grouped with the world but are grouped with ones the Father gave to Jesus. Then he further explians, American believeing Christians are not of the world " They are not of the World even as I am not of the world." Then he lastly reveals to us our answer of the people he was talking about in John 6, he says this: "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world." Who are those the Father gave to Jesus? Jews and gentiles. Not faithful Jews.

Jesus talks a lot a bout the world in this passage:

1. The world, according to the context is all of the people who hated them, "I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world."
2. The world can be seen as those who worship the creation instead of the creator, as we see in Romans chapter 2: "So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise!"
3. The world can also understood as a symbol for the sinful nature of man as we see in 1John: "For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and
the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world. ... "
4. the world can be understood as the lust of God's enemies"Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. ...
So whoever decides to be the world's friend makes himself God's enemy. ... "

User avatar
dizerner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: Bad Theology

Post by dizerner » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:34 am

The way I see it is, there is both the immediate application to the audience and the extended application over time. But the main thing with Calvinism is to see that, in the context of the whole passage, Christ constantly implied that people do things to synergistically cooperate with God's grace and prepare their hearts. At no point does he imply that those people were damned simply because, he, Christ, created them to be so. The phrase "all that the Father gives me will come to me" doesn't really lay out every and any factor involved with giving and coming. I've always found it a bit ironic that this particular "all" is the one "all" Calvinists want to really mean all, whereas in so many other places they want to see the all as meaning a specific subset. Maybe it just means "all kinds of" people the Father gives will come to him, and not literally all? :? But regardless, when taken with context, I can't see this really being a watertight passage for unconditional election.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3338
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Bad Theology

Post by steve » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:53 am

John316yes,

We are not discussing the use of the word "world," but the identity of those whom "the Father gave" to Jesus. You have shown that Christ's prayer extends beyond the group that God had given Him, so as to include those also who would later believe through their testimony. This is not being disputed. There are two groups mentioned: 1) those given to Jesus by the Father, and 2) those who would later believe through their influence. If you will acknowledge that Jesus said the former group refers to those who had previously belonged to God (the faithful remnant), but were given by God to Jesus in His lifetime (which is what His words in John 17:6 tell us), then it may make sense to bring up another topic, like "what is 'the world'?"

john316yes
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm

Re: Bad Theology

Post by john316yes » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:20 pm

Steve, Lets not forget the pronouns: All that the Father gives will come to me, whoever comes shall not go hungry lose nothing , I should lose none of All that he has given me, that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him should have eternal life.

These types of pronouns do not point to Jews, but to a none specific group according to english grammar. There are no indication that these statements support the idea that steve proposes.

Furthermore, the two groups that Jesus mentions are the World and All that the Father had given him
All that the Father gave to Jesus were the present Jews and the future Jews and Gentiles who believe.

Therfore, I when Jesus said, "I do not ask for these only but for those who will believe in me through their Word" we can accept that the pronouns These/Those are All that Father has given to Jesus. He then continues by usein the pronoun They They are the ones would recieve the track stick, that stick you pass when you run at the olympic games. These and Those are all that Father has given to Jesus.

It would be incorrect to say all that the Father gave to Jesus are the 1st century Jews. God is not an elitist.

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Bad Theology

Post by TheEditor » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:42 pm

I am not particularly going to defend one view of who exactly constituted the "given" ones, as I believe it is immaterial to the larger concept. The fact is that whether Jew or Gentile, they belonged to the Father and they were given to the Son. If they belonged to the Father, then they already were part of the true Israel of God declared righteous due to their trusting in Him; people such as Abraham, Job and the nameless number throughout history that Paul identifies as those who are a Law unto themselves (Romans 2:14-15).

The nonsense of Calvinism should be manifest to those who read the Scriptures without creedal spectacles. Even if true (which it is not) Calvinism (Augustinianism) is a dreadful message of doom that does not even allow the Calvinist to be sure of his or her salvation and a waste of time to share with people because at best it is a smug concept that doesn't accomplish one whit in drawing a person to God, because it is not in man's power (so they say) to do, and at worst portrays the God of Christians to be a capricious schizophrenic.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3338
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Bad Theology

Post by steve » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:13 pm

john316yes,
Steve, Lets not forget the pronouns: All that the Father gives will come to me, whoever comes shall not go hungry lose nothing , I should lose none of All that he has given me, that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him should have eternal life.

These types of pronouns do not point to Jews, but to a none specific group according to english grammar. There are no indication that these statements support the idea that steve proposes.
I am familiar with English grammar (and a little with Greek grammar), and it is such familiarity that seems lacking in your argument. The phrase "All that the Father has given me" does not, grammatically, indicate what the constituency of that group may entail. They may be the whole world, or they may be three Chinese chefs, for all one could learn from the grammar itself. Once this category has been defined, the word "whoever" in the same sentence is delimited to that category.

Your problem is in making the Calvinist assumption that the term "all that the Father has given me" is a generic phrase that includes all saved people of all time. There is no suggestion of elitism in limiting the membership of that group, so long as you are not saying that only that group will be saved. If you will read carefully what I have addressed to you above, you will realize that I agree with you about the salvation of many throughout the future as well as the group that Jesus says the Father had given Him.

You are assuming that the "giving" was done in eternity past, and that it is the same thing as "the elect." However, Jesus gives no indication that the giving was an eternal decree made before the foundation of the world. In fact, He says that they were alive and were God's servants before they were given to Him by God (again, John 17:6). The "giving" didn't take place before they were born. It took place when God entrusted to Jesus all those who had previously been devoted to God.
Furthermore, the two groups that Jesus mentions are the World and All that the Father had given him
No, there are three categories mentioned:

1) those whom the Father gave to Jesus (vv.6-9);
2) those who will believe as the result of the testimonies of those in the first group (vv.20-23); and
3) the world (vv.9, 16, 23);
All that the Father gave to Jesus were the present Jews and the future Jews and Gentiles who believe.
This identification might appeal to you, but it disagrees with what Jesus said. While I might think the world of you, I trust Jesus more.
It would be incorrect to say all that the Father gave to Jesus are the 1st century Jews.
Your conviction about this stems from assumptions that the text does not permit me to make.
God is not an elitist.
I agree completely, but it is not my theology that would make Him an elitist. It is Calvinism that does so. In my theology, anyone can get saved. In yours, only an elite, preselected few can do so.

john316yes
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm

Re: Bad Theology

Post by john316yes » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:50 am

Your ignoring grammar.


1.) An indefinite pronoun refers to something that is not definite or specific or exact. The indefinite pronouns are all, another, any, anybody, anyone, anything, each, everybody, everyone, everything, few, many, nobody, none, one, several, some, somebody, someone, These indefinite pronouns can also be used as indefinite adjectives in some cases.

2.) All are welcome to come to the birthday party tonight.
Lizzie gave that book to someone and never got it back.
Anyone can play the game as long as they follow the rules.
Does anybody have a clue where the dog went?
Everyone knows it is impolite to point at someone.
No one came forward to admit the crime, so the whole class was punished.
Everyone had a great time at the Christmas party.



I gave you the definition of the pronouns English grammmar says that the those pronnouns do not have an antacedent, they are ambigous. So if you say they are point to a particular group your wrong and reading into the text.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3338
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Bad Theology

Post by steve » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:04 am

john316yes,

You are either not familiar with rules of grammar, or you are not interested in admitting your error. Whichever may be the case, I have better things to do with my time than to give you a seventh-grade grammar lesson. You are welcome to believe whatever you choose. (Notice, in the previous two sentences, the correct use of "whichever" and "whatever"—you are welcome to add them to your list of examples, if you are going to expand your collection).

Post Reply

Return to “Radio Program Topics”