Pacifism

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jaydam
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Pacifism

Post by jaydam » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:43 pm

I did not hear the whole thing, but I am interested in the topic Steve was addressing yesterday related to the Christian’s ability to use force – be it on a personal level or a national one.

Looking back on my military time, I realize I was more an instrument for the forced propagation of democracy, rather than a tool to protect the needy. Sure, we can say we were hitting back to ensure we were safe as a nation, but we also took it as an excuse to dictate to other nations the best form of government they should, and thus would, have.

Some of the people I helped capture, kill, and war against had little concern for harming the US, but were firm in their support for their own national sovereignty and that the US had no right to come in and tell them what kind of government they must have.

Added to this, as a bouncer and on an individual level, I was a very violent person.

Upon coming to Christ, I have became almost a complete pacifist and anti-nationalist.

I would like to say I have no qualms about using force, up to the threat of death, to stop a rape, murder, or other crime. However, I struggle with the slippery slope even that presents.

If I am willing to personally stop a single rape, why wouldn’t I support a the use of military means to stop some rebel army committing rapes across a 3rd world country? Where does that stop?

If I think freedom is good and oppression is evil, why don’t I support the use of military means to coerce the oppressive leaders to form a free society?

How far do I use might to ensure the might of others does not tread on the weak?

I can go down a whole slippery slope of what is good in the sense of right and fair.

I listen to Christians who are adamant about the need for the military and to serve in it, as they declare, “If it wasn’t for a military willing to kill for what is right, we would all be speaking German right now!”

It’s a great phrase to declare, but it is really unprovable for a Christian, because a Christian cannot know what would happen if they had put things in God’s hands rather than in military action.

Maybe my question should be: How far is a Christian allowed to go to make life on earth as right as it should be?



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robbyyoung
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Re: Pacifism

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:22 pm

jaydam wrote:Maybe my question should be: How far is a Christian allowed to go to make life on earth as right as it should be?
Hi jaydam,

Off the top - One of the best guidelines is found in Gal 5:19-23, with emphasis on vs. 22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

You can be in any law abiding profession AND NOT partake in the works of the flesh, as outlined in Gal 5. A good example is the Centurion soldier who came to Christ and wasn't asked ask to leave his profession. In other words, there is NO LAW against being convicted in oneself to exhibit the ultimate sacrifice of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, and temperance, even to the point of forfieting your own life. It's not a sin, even if others deem you as a fool. To the measure that is given to each and every one of us, may God's grace be sufficient.

God Bless.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Pacifism

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:42 am

I have way too many opinions on this topic, my dad a 20 year vet said there has been a change in the role of American military. The Militarys chief mission was that of fighting and winning, yet now it is often forced into occupying, policing, politics and offering aid (?) this is not their job description. And yet we continue to force military into this role, which makes military objectives confusing and misunderstood. The world and its politics are way way too big too police and influence, and way too big a question for Christians too use in drawing a line in the sand when deciding on serving in the military forces. We have to see military service as a job: the job of the soldier is to win, destroy, and kill if necessary. When working for a secular company (like the military) we have to do what we were hired to do, the boss makes the decisions not us, like military, very few business decisions have a moral objective that we agree with. We should do this job, like any other, with Christian attitude and effort. We should do that job better and better, with all our heart and abilities. And if we take a job in the military we know our job is to win wars, and kill if necessary, otherwise do not take the job. Pray for a quick mission, precision, and few or no casualties. Pray for a miraculous result, but we have to just do what the job describes. The world will always have soldiers and armed forces, that’s a fact; they are necessary as scripture says. If we join the military, like any job, we want to do our job with all our might and be the best. Still in the military you can be an influence for: good moral, strong courage, discipline, wisdom, camaraderie, friendship, and prayer with other soldiers. Hopefully God would give us a victory in our military service, and in our civilian jobs, and in our office, and on our work site, even if our leaders don’t have sense or understanding, we need military but we cant wait until the military is perfect and guided by saints, that wont happen. It is a spiritual battle, I have to deal with it at my construction site, and my wife has to deal with it at her job, as there is a battle all around us. Our military does not ‘try’ to kill people at random, we have a responsible and cautious military right now, one of the most restrained the earth has ever known, and pray it stays that way. We have to have a military, so please don’t discourage Christians from joining until the only people left in the military are godless, as so many of our leaders are.

I am pro-gun, pro-military, in order to protect others (while it’s still legal). Still I often counsel others to forget the gun and pick up your bible, you won’t save anyone with a gun. We were called to make disciples and do good unto one another. Christians in China, Pakistan and former Russia aren’t winning the war with guns, they are winning with underground bible studies and prayer.

Pardon the rant Jaydam, it was not targeted at you or anyone here, just a rant. Did you see the forum threads on Pacifism here (below)?
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... =+pacifism
http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... m&start=20
Last edited by jriccitelli on Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

dizerner

Re: Pacifism

Post by dizerner » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:49 am

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Last edited by dizerner on Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Paidion
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Re: Pacifism

Post by Paidion » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:35 pm

I am pro-gun, pro-military, in order to protect others (while it’s still legal).
So JR, would you kill an aggressor without a qualm, in order to protect the innocent?

But if it were illegal to do so, would you refrain from killing the aggressor without a qualm, and let him attack the innocent?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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schoel
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Re: Pacifism

Post by schoel » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:59 pm

Questions:

How does a follower of Jesus who is a soldier resolve the tension with Jesus' statement to "Love your enemies" (Matt 5:43-48)? Since it is the job of a soldier to fight, kill and destroy the enemies of the government for whom he/she is employed (or provide support services to accomplish that task), how can a soldier obey Jesus and perform his duties?

God loves all people and desires them to repent into relationship with Him, including those whom a soldier would be attempting to harm or kill. Since God calls his people to love as He loves, how can a soldier perform his duties while loving others like God does?

A soldier is conditioned and trained to obey first, and ask questions later, with a pledge of obedience to the state that he serves. A Christian has committed full allegiance to Jesus, pledging to obey Him at all costs. How can we pledge to both without deception to one or the other?

Is the current state of the USA military one of defense or aggression, peace or violence, caution or carelessness? Please consider honestly based on the last 50 years of activity.

Has the military in the USA become an idol, usurping the place of God in many people's hearts?

schoel
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Re: Pacifism

Post by schoel » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:23 pm

jaydam wrote:...

Upon coming to Christ, I have became almost a complete pacifist and anti-nationalist.
...
Maybe my question should be: How far is a Christian allowed to go to make life on earth as right as it should be?
Your current state is exactly where I'm currently at, although I completely distrust the state and its military to be honest and capable of detecting the right thing to do. Therefore, I'm already convinced that government or military involvement will make any situation worse.

Additionally, I'm wrestling with the question as to if violence is ever redeemable. Here is a good article to read on that : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shane-cla ... 95889.html. Also see Greg Boyd's website Reknew.org and search on "non-violence" for a lot of good information.

Be encouraged...you are asking fantastic questions that get to the heart of the Gospel. May we both find Jesus in our answers.

Dave

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robbyyoung
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Re: Pacifism

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:11 pm

schoel wrote:Questions:

How does a follower of Jesus who is a soldier resolve the tension with Jesus' statement to "Love your enemies" (Matt 5:43-48)?... how can a soldier obey Jesus and perform his duties?

...Since God calls his people to love as He loves, how can a soldier perform his duties while loving others like God does?

...How can we pledge to both without deception to one or the other?

Is the current state of the USA military one of defense or aggression, peace or violence, caution or carelessness? Please consider honestly based on the last 50 years of activity.

Has the military in the USA become an idol, usurping the place of God in many people's hearts?
Hi schoel,

Here's a wonderful PDF in defense of civil authority and it's employees from a Biblical standpoint. I understand your concerns but scripture IS NOT negligent in clarity on the subject.

http://www.padfield.com/acrobat/tracts/government.pdf

God Bless.

thrombomodulin
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Re: Pacifism

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:44 pm

jriccitelli wrote: When working for a secular company we have to do what we were hired to do, the boss makes the decisions not us... very few business decisions have a moral objective that we agree with.
No you do not - the boss's authority is limited. He is the owner of certain property (e.g. land, buildings, tools) which he provides for his employees to use. He does have the right to decide how these may or may not be used. A Christian must not use the bosses property in a way that violates his wishes. But the boss does not own the employee. If your conscience is violated by a bosses request, you are free to respond by doing nothing, and he is free not to pay you for doing nothing (you quit your job).
jriccitelli wrote: We have to see military service as a job ... And if we take a job in the military we know our job is to win wars, and kill if necessary ... but we have to just do what the job describes
Like a job in the secular world, why must one obey any order which violates one's conscience? I know that the military imposes penalties on those who refuse to obey all its orders, which is a great hardship. Isn't a clear conscience more valuable than enduring hardship?
jriccitelli wrote: Hopefully God would give us a victory in our military service.
Should Christians subject to the enemy ruler pray for the defeat of your military and the victory of their own? When an enemy solider kills an American, is he acting righteously? Why or why not?

thrombomodulin
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Re: Pacifism

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:13 pm

http://www.padfield.com/acrobat/tracts/government.pdf wrote: does anyone have the right to be a soldier or a policeman?
I would like to suggest the author is asking the wrong question. The right question to ask is under what circumstances God's normal rules of conduct for human beings is inverted. Christians and non-Christians alike should not kill, loot, plunder, or destroy property belonging to others. My question is: Under what circumstances are soldiers exempt from these laws, and when do they have to obey them? How is the solider to know whether he should behave one way, or exactly the opposite?
http://www.padfield.com/acrobat/tracts/government.pdf wrote: However, God has delegated "vengeance" to the civil government (Rom. 13:4).
Maybe, but maybe not. One has to take some care in defining what government is, what a crime is, and how one views jurisdiction. I would like to begin with just one of the three. What is a crime? Do you see a "crime" in Romans as being anything whatsoever that the government wishes to forbid? For example, to the best of my knowledge, God has made no law prohibiting the sale of alcohol on Sunday. The rulers of the State of Indiana, however, have declared that it is a crime to buy alcohol on Sunday. There are two separate questions one might ask about this: (1) Should Christians refrain from buying alcohol on Sunday in Indiana? (2) Is it a righteous or wicked action for the rulers of Indiana to punish those who buy alcohol on Sunday? The first question has some interesting aspects, but it is really the second question that is pertinent to this discussion. Namely, how much authority has God given Caesar over others? Would Caesar be engaging in wrongdoing to punish an act that God's does not regard as a crime? Is his authority limited to enforce only laws God has made, or has he been granted the authority not only to enforce law, but to create it arbitrarily?

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