suicide and mental illness

[Homer]

Seems to me that suicide is usually a sin of weakness rather than willfulness. And I think God's grace is sufficient for that. What of all the people who die while committing a sin(s) of neglect? Not to mention ignorance. We all sin, some more, some less.

[psimmond]

I don't have anything new to add, but I think Steve's post--coupled with Brenden's--covers the issue quite well.

[steve]

jaydam wrote:

To skip over a lot more that could be said, I believe suicide is a sin, yet I also believe most any singular act of giving into temptation and committing a sin will not make us lose our salvation. Thus, I believe one can fall into a sin, even suicide, and still be considered a Christian.

Mmathis replied:

I have trouble with the fact there is no chance for repentance after suicide. Don't get me wrong, I lost a niece to suicide, so I'm open to any idea that she could still be saved.

The question of whether a person can still be saved, despite committing suicide, is not a matter I intended to speculate about. My comments were to establish personal responsibility and culpability on the part to the person committing the act. As such, I see suicide as a grievous sin. I agree with Editor and others that Christians are not saved on the basis of having had the opportunity to repent of the last sin committed before they die. Christians sometimes fall into sin. If they have opportunity afterward, they repent. If they do not have the opportunity, then, you can be sure they would have repented. God knows all things, so He can judge the matter case-by-case.

Regardless whether salvation can survive suicide, a Christian's primary concern should be whether or not suicide is a sin or not. If so, it is not permissible. This is an entirely different question than one of postmortem destinies. Christians, by definition, don't want to sin.

[Jepne]

This is only for those who believe in capital punishment:

Just a thought, maybe a bit quirky, but, toward a person who committed a capital crime by killing himself, would the attitude be that he deserved to die, and, therefore, one should not mourn his death? Perhaps not quirky at all...I should think it would follow.

[mattrose]

This is only for those who believe in capital punishment:

Just a thought, maybe a bit quirky, but, toward a person who committed a capital crime by killing himself, would the attitude be that he deserved to die, and, therefore, one should not mourn his death? Perhaps not quirky at all...I should think it would follow.

I think capital punishment should be reserved for the worst of cases...those who mercilessly murdered other human beings. I doubt very many people who commit suicide would have fit such criteria. Just my 2 cents.

[schoel]

My wife (Teresa) and I had a rather spirited discussion about this topic just the other night. While neither she nor I nor any of our kids are on any of these types of medications, she has a sister and a close friend who are.

The discussion revolved around her friend, who had a rough childhood with drug addict parents who at one point attempted to kill her. She is now in a healthy marriage with 2 daughters. She allows no contact with her parents as they are still enmeshed in a destructive lifestyle.

A few years ago, she began to lose control of her emotions regularly and began to sink into a state of depression that prevented her from functioning. The diagnosis she received from her doctor (not sure if he was medical or psychiatric) was Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and was to go on some sort of anti-depression medication. Since she started on them, she has been able to function normally, but is uncomfortable staying on them for various reasons.

In the discussion Teresa and I had about her friend's desire to go off the medications, I mentioned that perhaps the core of what her friend was dealing with was an emotional/spiritual issue, and should be addressed through Jesus rather than medications. Teresa agreed to some degree, but wonders if a highly-impacting negative series of events could alter the brain chemistry so as to require the mood altering medication for a while or even permanently. I wasn't sure if this could be true, but it did seem plausible as the human spiritual and physical sides are enmeshed, probably more than we know. However, I expressed concern that numbing the pain would probably avoid facing and dealing with it and that isn't healthy.

In my estimation, using mood altering medications to deal with emotional/spiritual issues is similar to a person using alcohol or marijuana to cope with pain or guilt. In a case with alcohol or pot, I would direct someone who is trying to follow Christ to wean themself off the drug and turn to Jesus for help with the pain. Teresa thought that this was a comparison of "apples to oranges" and the two scenarios were different.

Your thoughts?
Any book recommendations?

ps. I'm not trying to win an argument with my wife , but am truly trying to view the issue from all sides.

Dave

[TheEditor]

Hi Dave,

Good to remember; never try to win an argument with your wife.

I'll offer my own observtions, which are based upon my own close observations and reading.

For starters, there is a common misunderstanding regarding "mood-altering" medications. First off, they are not "happy pills"; in fact, most of them have less of an impact on the pschy than a garden-variety valium. Basically, what many of them do is allow seritonin to have more of an effect on the brain through a series of mechanisms.

Seritonin itself is an interesting thing. Most are familiar with melatonin, the chemical our body produces that makes us tired. The body responds to darkness and produces more melatonin in response. One of the reasons watching TV (or looking at a computer montor) at night impacts sleep is due to a supression of this biological function.

Seritonin likewise does more than just elevate mood. Interstingly, have you ever noticed when you are under a great deal of stress or are very nervous, that you have digestive discomfort? I think it may have been Jeremiah that said "My intestines are in a ferment" when he was talking about his emotional straights. Well the reason is is that there are receptors of seritonin in the gut as well, and severe emotions can impact digestion ( "I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made." (Psalm 139:14) )

If it were me, I would prefer a psychiatrist (not an MD) prescribe any psychotropic drugs, since they do work differently and the psychiatrist needs to have a better working knowledge of how each one works as opposed to an MD.

Sometimes as people get older (meaning over 40) whatever emotional issues they have, that they have by sheer will avoided succumbing to, they finally end up facing. I have seen this time and time again ("Gee, Fred seems so well-adjusted given how his father beat him on a regular basis and his mother was an alcoholic that was never there"). Then "Fred" turns 40... Your wife is correct, it is "apples and oranges". Alcohol can be used to accomplish something similar, which is why many depressed people drink. But it's negative effects are myriad. Plus, like I say, drugs like Zoloft, Celexa, etc. are not "happy pills"; in fact, many people report not feeling any different--they just don't feel as miserable. When my back hurts really bad, I sometimes have to take a strong pain pill. I would rather not have to have someone standing over me saying "Are you sure you need that?"

I offer my thoughts only as a counter-balance to the way I viewed things when I was in my 20s. Sometimes we get strident in our thinking and then we get a little older and realize that we didn't have our world view all sewn up by the time we were 23...lol...unlike Calvin, of course....

Regards, Brenden.

[schoel]

I'll offer my own observations, which are based upon my own close observations and reading.
...

Thanks for the feedback...
I did not realize that all "happy pills" are not created equal. Based on what you described, some work a little more naturally with the body's chemistry (i.e. allowing more seratonin) while some bring a harsher outside substance that isn't naturally occurring. I wonder if the former do less to permanently alter chemistry and cause dependency than the latter.

Bottom line for me - Do the prescription "happy pills" assist towards healing or do they numb so as to prevent healing?

[nancyer]

We discussed depression in our Tuesday morning group mainly because of Robin Williams' sad departure. I am deeply saddened by this immense loss and continue to pray for his family.

We didn't get into the "suicide is sin" aspect of it. Can someone point me toward scripture on this?

Also, the title of this thread is "suicide and mental illness". Is someone who commits, or attempts, suicide mentally ill? I've always thought that anyone who would commit cold blooded murder is insane, no sane person would do such a thing, and therefore insanity is not an excuse. It's a definition. Are we saying that a mentally ill person cannot commit this kind of sin? (I'm not saying the mentally ill aren't responsible and therefore never commit sin. Would a kleptomaniac be guilty of the sin of theft? Weird thought that just came to me....)

I believe I'm rambling, but do want to add my 2 cents worth.

[jaydam]

Bottom line for me - Do the prescription "happy pills" assist towards healing or do they numb so as to prevent healing?

As one who was on many meds before becoming a Christian, some prescription pills can give a euphoric feeling, and some flatten out your emotions so you do not feel so down, thus making you feel "better" by default because you can't feel so bad.

The ones that make you feel emotionally "flat" also prevent you from really feeling happy. They limit mood in either direction

Ultimately, I would not recommend meds at all. However, if somebody is suicidal and unrational, meds can help in a moment of crisis, provided the person is refusing all other means and you need to save their life.

The other problem is that a nonsuicidal person who feels a strong inhibition towards suicide can become more suicidal as the meds remove their emotional resistance to the idea of taking their own life.

From experience, I would say meds really do not lend themselves to healing since most prevent human emotional responses that should coincide with working out a problem. Positive and negative emotions are blocked. Such as conviction, remorse, hope; all feelings that when felt would lend themselves to a person changing their life. By blocking or limiting the experience of these emotions, I think you prohibit recovery.

The meds more create a static state, and I believe they hamper appropriate progress while preventing further deterioration.


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