Trinity.

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:35 pm

Yes, Robby, I agree that there is nothing mysterious about the terms "begotten" and "only-begotten". As I stated in the last sentence of my previous post:
"There is no difference whatever in the Son's having been begotten as the first act of God and his having been the firstborn of all creation."

Indeed, the catholics of the 4th century celebrated Christ's Mass with three masses in honour of Christ, his birth before all ages, his birth from Mary, and his birth in the hearts of the faithful.

Indeed, in reading your most recent post, I see little difference between your view of the matter and mine. I, too, believe that God begat the Son as the Logos, the first of God's acts. Indeed, the only difference I see between your view and mine, is that you see the inital birth of the Logos as a creation, whereas I don't. The Son is the exact imprint of the God's essence (Heb 1:3). That fact is consistent with a birth, not a creation. When a human mother gives birth to a child, it is human like herself. When God begat or produced or gave birth to the Logos, it was divine like Himself. A mother doesn't create her child. She creates a painting, or maybe a cake. That which she creates is unlike herself. It is not human as her child is. So with God. The things that God created are not divine as He is. But that which He begat (his Son, the Logos) WAS divine like Himself. God's son is "the ONLY-begotten Son." You mentioned that Adam was called "the son of God" in Luke 3:38. That is true. Adam was created. But only the Logos was his ONLY-begotten Son. This Son was the logos (expression) of the Father. Through his life and practices while He lived upon this earth, He expressed the Father as He really is—in a way that was unknown by the ancient Hebrews.

But the Son was not created; He was begotten. As the ancient Xmas carol, Adeste Fideles, has it in the second verse (which for some reason has been omitted in most hymn books:

God of God light of light
Lo he abhors not the virgin's womb;
Very God begotten not created:
O come let us adore him Christ the Lord.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Trinity.

Post by robbyyoung » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:31 am

Paidion wrote:Yes, Robby, I agree that there is nothing mysterious about the terms "begotten" and "only-begotten". As I stated in the last sentence of my previous post:
"There is no difference whatever in the Son's having been begotten as the first act of God and his having been the firstborn of all creation."

Indeed, the catholics of the 4th century celebrated Christ's Mass with three masses in honour of Christ, his birth before all ages, his birth from Mary, and his birth in the hearts of the faithful.

Indeed, in reading your most recent post, I see little difference between your view of the matter and mine. I, too, believe that God begat the Son as the Logos, the first of God's acts. Indeed, the only difference I see between your view and mine, is that you see the inital birth of the Logos as a creation, whereas I don't. The Son is the exact imprint of the God's essence (Heb 1:3). That fact is consistent with a birth, not a creation. When a human mother gives birth to a child, it is human like herself. When God begat or produced or gave birth to the Logos, it was divine like Himself. A mother doesn't create her child. She creates a painting, or maybe a cake. That which she creates is unlike herself. It is not human as her child is. So with God. The things that God created are not divine as He is. But that which He begat (his Son, the Logos) WAS divine like Himself. God's son is "the ONLY-begotten Son." You mentioned that Adam was called "the son of God" in Luke 3:38. That is true. Adam was created. But only the Logos was his ONLY-begotten Son. This Son was the logos (expression) of the Father. Through his life and practices while He lived upon this earth, He expressed the Father as He really is—in a way that was unknown by the ancient Hebrews.

But the Son was not created; He was begotten. As the ancient Xmas carol, Adeste Fideles, has it in the second verse (which for some reason has been omitted in most hymn books:

God of God light of light
Lo he abhors not the virgin's womb;
Very God begotten not created:
O come let us adore him Christ the Lord.
Hi Paidion,

Fair enough, and yes, I can definitely be persuaded in change of terminology and origin (created vs birth) in regards to Yeshua's divinity and deity. What I find most striking is we are left, post apostolic era, without any inspired Prophet of God to set the record straight. Some scriptures leave us lost in translation. The 1st Century Believers had it all, for it was necessary to bring about the end of the age. Were The Apostles ever lost in translation? Unfortunately, we will never get to ask them questions that linger during our time here on earth. What The Father saw fit to leave us with in The Kingdom is Faith, Hope and Love, the greater being Love and this should suffice until we cross-over into that eternal realm known as God's Heaven.

God Bless.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Trinity.

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:16 am

Robby you don't have to wait until you leave earth to ask questions, you could ask some here. The 1st Century Believers had it all, yes they had The Prophets and the Promises, and it was being fulfilled, here lets take a look at a verse Paidion quoted above:

"And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they: For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him" (Hebrews 1:3-6, quoting Psalm 2)

This is not talking about created vs birth, or what begotten means, it is about a promised KING, look at the context:

"But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain." 7" I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession…” (Psalm 2:6-8)

Remember this is David the King writing here, the context is the promise God made to David concerning His Kingdom ‘Today I have become your father’ was a declaration of Gods affirmation and appointment of the One who would be King, The Son, The Messiah, A Savior, A Priest, the One coming, etc. The passage declares and proclaims this decree, The fulfillment of the promises made to David: 'But they shall serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them' (Jeremiah 30:9, see Acts 13:34 and many other verses in this context) "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him' (Matt 2:2)

To turn our hope of the future King, into God giving literal birth to another being, is for one, missing entirely the point of the prophetic hopes of all the passages in this context and all the Messianic hopes realized and promised within it for a King, the King being appointed, anointed, receiving the Kingdom, and worshiped by all of Heaven (not some pre-time birth process).


This whole begotten / Jesus being created thing is pointless within the context of The promised King and Messiah. The verse in Psalms and the following scriptural promises throughout scripture in this context speak of the fulfillment and appointment of Gods King and the Messiah, as with David the King, His Lord, and Solomon the promised son:
'But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom' (Hebrews 1:8)

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robbyyoung
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Re: Trinity.

Post by robbyyoung » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:09 pm

jriccitelli wrote:Robby you don't have to wait until you leave earth to ask questions, you could ask some here.


Hi JR,

My intent was to focus on the mysterious "unseen realm" and the nature/abilities of it's spiritual inhabitants. The Apostles were our last link to the inspired understanding of such truths. What is required for those Post 70 A.D. is to believe the historical account, however, in order to believe the account, in all truth, one must laboriously attain the following milestones:

1. Be a good researcher
2. Become a scholar of the culture or well read in all the scholarly data available

The fact is, we have all the inspired data we will ever receive. Unless the future unearths additional historical documents by the N.T. Writers, this is all there will ever be. Faith, Hope and Love is what was promised to remain in regards to the charismata. For me the evidence suggest that's where we are today and we must be content in whatever phase of life we are called to promote the righteousness of Kingdom Life.

God Bless!

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:25 pm

Unless the future unearths additional historical documents by the N.T. Writers, this is all there will ever be.
Hi Robby,

Just curious. Do you think that if such documents were unearthed, that they would be added to our New Testaments? I am sure they wouldn't.
There is extant a letter which is supposed to be Paul's letter to the Laodiceans, though some doubt that it is the one to which Paul refers in Col 4:16.
But even if it were established to be Paul's genuine letter to the Laodiceans, I feel quite certain that it will never be added to the New Testament.
Tradition... tradition...tradition. :roll:
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Trinity.

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:27 am

Paidion wrote:
Unless the future unearths additional historical documents by the N.T. Writers, this is all there will ever be.
Hi Robby,

Just curious. Do you think that if such documents were unearthed, that they would be added to our New Testaments? I am sure they wouldn't.
There is extant a letter which is supposed to be Paul's letter to the Laodiceans, though some doubt that it is the one to which Paul refers in Col 4:16.
But even if it were established to be Paul's genuine letter to the Laodiceans, I feel quite certain that it will never be added to the New Testament.
Tradition... tradition...tradition. :roll:
Hi Paidion,

I agree, Churchianity, with all it's manufactured claims of authority, would most likely reject any and all threats to it's exclusivity. However, thanks be to God that the true Body of Christ is comprised of individual Saints with a BRAIN. These individuals, post Apostolic Era/End of the Age, must consider all the evidence on hand and decide for themselves what part of history is relevant to the cause or not. For the last 2000 years we have been in the position to judge/witness history objectively based on all the relevant data. I believe many, "In The Body", have adopted this thought process from the beginning and will always reject the monstrosity of Churchianity in the world. Some traditions are road blocks to progress and growth. :(

God Bless.

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:03 pm

Here is a copy of what purports to be Paul's letter to the Laodiceans. No Greek text exists. It was translated from Latin. It sounds a lot like Colossians in several respects, and so the Colossian church (if it is genuine and had been sent to Colosse) would not have learned anything new from it. I am inclined to think it was composed by someone trying to fill the gap with regards to the letter that Paul had said he had written to the Laodiceans (Col 3:16).

☧1 Paul an Apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, to the brethren which are at Laodicea.
  2   Grace be to you, and Peace, from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.
  3   I thank Christ in every prayer of mine, that you may continue and persevere in good works looking for that which is promised in the day of judgment.
  4   Let not the vain speeches of any trouble you who pervert the truth, that they may draw you aside from the truth of the Gospel which I have preached.
  5   And now may God grant, that my converts may attain to a perfect knowledge of the truth of the Gospel, be beneficent, and doing good works which accompany salvation.
  6   And now my bonds, which I suffer in Christ, are manifest, in which I rejoice and am glad.
  7   For I know that this shall turn to my salvation for ever, which shall be through your prayer and the supply of the Holy Spirit.
  8   Whether I live or die; (for) to me to live shall be a life to Christ, to die will be joy.
  9   And our Lord will grant us his mercy, that ye may have the same love, and be like-minded.
  10   Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have heard of the coming of the Lord, so think and act in fear, and it shall be to you life eternal;
  11   For it is God who worketh in you;
  12   And do all things without sin.
  13   And what is best, my beloved; rejoice in the Lord Jesus Christ, and avoid all filthy lucre.
  14   Let all your requests be made known to God, and be steady in the doctrine of Christ.
  15   And whatsoever things are sound and true, and of good report, and chaste, and just, and lovely, these things do.
  16   Those things which ye have heard, and received, think on these things, and peace shall be with you.
  17   All the saints salute you.
  18   The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
  19   Cause this Epistle to be read to the Colossians, and the Epistle of the Colossians to be read among you.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Trinity.

Post by dizerner » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:34 pm

I'd love a new letter found by Paul, but not so much a fake one... I get this feeling by people constantly drawn to new things like the plain old Gospel just isn't good enough, we have to find new secrets and new discoveries. Isn't that a recipe for error? Not loving the truth? Is it really such a terrible thing to be cautious? Wouldn't it have helped Adam to be more cautious? Is a "narrow" road really not what our Father would choose for us? Do we need to broaden it out a bit?

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