Trinity.

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PR
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Re: Trinity.

Post by PR » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:56 pm

Brenden, sorry I don't have the time to respond to all that you ask, I'll start at the bottom.

I guess I'm not understanding the use of the word monotheism, maybe I'm wrong. I consider myself a monotheist.

Here's my understanding of what the bible teaches:

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God

There is one God

There are three persons who make up the Godhead. I've heard it described as three whos and one what. As I continue to say, it's not fully understandable by my human reasoning. Western rationalism demands a complete and satisfactory explanation, but I don't expect or need one this side of eternity. But that's what I, and 100s of millions of others find described in the bible. Perhaps a more eastern philosophical approach would be better suited for some of these types of questions.

"Homers point is valid; if each "person" of he trinity is "fully god" than any one of the three could be excised from the "godhead"

Excised? This is impossible, it ain't gonna happen. Who's going to do this? Satan? I don't even understand the question.

I wasn't directing my theocracy illustration to you because of your JW background. It was a general comment to illustrate how words like trinity come to be used as shorthand for biblical doctrine. I guess we can ask Tertullian what he meant when we see him on the other side!

And yes I did mean to use Divinity.

I see you disagree with my understanding of John 10:33, how about John 5:18? There's a lot to cover in John alone besides that.

Thanks,

Phil

Cheryl
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Cheryl » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:38 pm

PR, You said, "It was a general comment to illustrate how words like trinity come to be used as shorthand for biblical doctrine." [Sorry, I can't seem to get how to use the "quote" option.]

You use the word godhead. Are the concepts behind a godhead different from those of a trinity?

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:50 pm

PR wrote:Here's my understanding of what the bible teaches:

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
There is one God
There are three persons who make up the Godhead.
WHERE does the Bible teach this???
WHERE does the Bible teach a compound God made up of three persons?
Please quote just one scripture in which the word "θεος" refers to the Trinity.

Note: The Greek word "θεος" is transliterated as "theos", and translated into English as "god" or "God".
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:07 pm

Cheryl wrote:[Sorry, I can't seem to get how to use the "quote" option.]
Just highlight the quote by holding the left button on your mouse and moving the mouse over the words.
Then release the left button and press the word "Quote" in the menu above.

If you want the quote to read that someone wrote the quote, just place = and the name of the person after it with quotes around it. This is how I got it my quote of you to say "Cheryl wrote". See below:
Cheryl wrote:
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:33 pm

Hi PR,

Thanks for engaging.

Excised? This is impossible, it ain't gonna happen. Who's going to do this? Satan? I don't even understand the question.


Perhaps I used a poor choice in words. My point was, that in trinitarian theology, the idea is put forth that each person in the "godhead" is fully God; the Son is fully God; the Father is fully God and the Holy Spirit is fully God. Each one is a seperate Person, but the three combined do not make three Gods but One God, in three Persons, but not three "parts". My point was, if we remove "one Person" from the trinity, we are still left with an entity that is Fully God. Homer's point was that if all three are "fully God" even outside the confines of the "godhead" (the Creeds state the Jesus was "fully God and fully Man") then how could this not mean that there are Three Gods?

You say you meant "divinity" and not "deity". Fair enough. But, my point was still true, that Orthodox trinitarians make this a bone of contention. "Divinity" is something that all (at least as far as I remember) non-trinitarians believe about Jesus. When I was a JW I was challenged regularly when I said I believed Jesus was "divine". I was told, "No, that's not enough. You have to believe Jesus is "deity"."

Let's consider John 5:18 in it's context. After Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath, we read:

"The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

John 5:15-27.

Here we see again, Jesus appears to the reader to be stifling the Jews notions about what he was claiming. Why else would he say "the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing", and that the Father has "granted" thus and so to the Son? Was he trying to clarify some fine point of relationship in the "godhead"? Some theologians thought and think so, I'm not so sure. Also, John says that the Jews believed Jesus was "violating the Sabbath". Was he? So then, was he claiming equality because the Jews thought so?

Lest you think I am still an Arian from my JW days, I can asure you that I am a staunch "Unsure-ian". :lol:

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:40 pm

Hi Cheryl,

You asked:

You use the word godhead. Are the concepts behind a godhead different from those of a trinity?


You addressed your question to Phil, but since I actually used the term in my post, I wll say this; This term "godhead" is only used three times in the KJV of the New Testamment. The word comes from the Greek word theiotes which means "divinity" or "divine quality".

Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead [theiotes] is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."

Rom. 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead [theiotes]; so that they are without excuse."

Col. 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [theiotes] bodily."

It is rendered differently in the KJV here:

2 Peter 1:3 "According as his divine [theiotes] power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine [theiotes] nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

I'm not sure of the etymology of rendering this word "godhead" or why the tranlators chose to use it, but I could hazard a guess.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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darinhouston
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Re: Trinity.

Post by darinhouston » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:42 pm

Not to muddy this thread further -- but, watch for a new posting on a book I'm reading -- would love to have some of you read it along with me.

One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith -- $29 (Kindle Edition is only $1.99)

"http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004FG ... UTF8&psc=1"

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:33 pm

Hi Darin,

If I have the time I'll give it a read. I checked out the reviews, and they were much as expected. I hope the discourse here is elevated above that which I read on Amazon, to wit; "oxy-moronic Biblical Unitarians attempt to use their pee brain intellect to discern the bible and God, but in the words of Jude 19, "they have not the Spirit"." :lol:

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

Singalphile
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Singalphile » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:29 pm

Having just read the whole thread, I still would like to know why a trinitarian understanding or affirmation of God's nature (or super-nature!) should be necessary in order for a person to be reconciled to Him. I would be interested in reading a logical, scripture-based, and self-critical explanation of why I should believe that.

I think that I ought to be humble and slow to claim to know more than what Christ and the prophets and apostles explicitly told us, and I think I ought to be careful about excommunicating people with "wrong" opinions without clear Biblical instruction. (For example, I think that an atheist could be excommunicated because Hebrews 11 says that, "he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. [NASB]")

I prefer to quote Jesus and the apostles rather than extra-Biblical creeds and formulas. If after prayerful study and contemplation, that still leaves some uncertainties, then that's fine with me. Should a person feel an urgent need to be certain about our God's "composition"? I don't, and I cannot understand that desire. Perhaps I have some flaw in that area. I don't think it's a matter of character on my part, since it seems to me to just be a part of my personality.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Homer
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Homer » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:50 pm

Having just read the whole thread, I still would like to know why a trinitarian understanding or affirmation of God's nature (or super-nature!) should be necessary in order for a person to be reconciled to Him. I would be interested in reading a logical, scripture-based, and self-critical explanation of why I should believe that.
As for me, I believe Peter's confession is all that is required regarding who Jesus is. But then the question remains as to how to respond to a challenge from a Jew or Muslim.

For myself, I think there is one God who is manifested in three aspects simultaneously. These three, although being one, communicate with each other. God is a complex being. To my mind, the human body is an analogy, although God is far beyond our form. But think of how our bodies function. The brain moves the hand to pick up an object. The brain does not know the object is too hot to handle. The hand communicates to the brain through neurons than the object is hot. The brain communicates back that the object is to be dropped.

Neurons in our body both receive and send messages. And God is far beyond us. Why can't one aspect of God communicate with another? Scripture informs us that God is spirit and can not be seen. Yet God became man, visible, touchable, just as we are. And I think when Jesus prayed to the Father, somebody "was home".

I am not oneness, although I believe there is one God.

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