Trinity.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:57 am

Hi John,

Yes indeed, you could have trotted out the old war-horse arguments. And, I would bave parried with the counter arguments, not because I really care anymore, but because I would have felt obliged to present the "other side" which is in my nature.

It is difficult to even allow oneself to question a long-held doctrinal belief, especially one that has been hammered so vociferously and continually as the trinity has. And, when respected men tell us that we are "lost" or "unsaved"--or worse--if we don't accept it, then the conscientious (which I believe you are) feel constrained to "give a witness" for the doctrine so as to snatch a brother(?) from the fire.

I remember when I was a JW and certain questions were raised as to the validity of cherished and oft-repeated doctrines. If I had even a lingering doubt, I ran the risk of being thought of as an apostate from the truth, if by nobody but my own conscience. I suspect the same is true for those to whom the trinity is a salvific doctrine.

Do I go to church? That depends on how you define "church". If by "church" you mean where two or more are gathered in my name, then Yes. If by it you mean rather, where there is a lecturer, and an ecclesiastical teaching authority that can make sure that I have my doctrine down straight, then No. Why would I? Why would I leave the church of my birth--because I knew to remain long would have meant disfellowshipping--just to join another church where, given time, some well-meaning soul such as yourself, would have the Pastor knocking on my door to make sure I was saved (believed in the trinity) and after much effort, perhaps recommend to the Board of Directors that "that Brenden fellow appears to believe errant doctrine, best to avoid him". No, not this kid. And, if you think that sort of thing doesn't happen, then I would suggest you don't understand group dynamics. But thanks for you well-meaning concern. And I do mean that, depite my sometimes acerbic wit.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:19 pm

To the Editor, so you don't go to church? Then do you gather together for Bible Study? Prayer Group? or Worship group? I'm not sure what you mean. With out these, it is possible to be led far into the darkness as a sheep without a shepherd. You can get into much trouble and into much doctrinal error. I attend Metro Calvary Church in the Northern California Area. Its pretty cool. Nobody knocks on my door. Its pretty fun. I do have a group of people though, my friends and family who keep morally accountable. I need this a lot more though cuz as of now, especially in these hard economic times, life is very hard, but I have good encouraging Christian friends. The problem with people who love doctrine and like to ponder deep truths about the Bible is that they think highly of themselves. I recently saw this in myself when I asked for prayer Sunday morning at Church. There was somebody my age who went through the same problem Im going through right now, and to my surprise, he was very knowledgeable in Doctrine and Theology; he was very encouraging. What I saw, was another perspective. Sometimes being alone with your doctrine and problems can really set you up for failure and frustration.

As far as the Nicene Creed, this is not our doctrinal statement and is not taught every Sunday. My Pastor is Theologically sound, but he doesn't teach theology, he preaches from the Bible Verse by Verse, with a heavy strain on the Gospel of Christ our Savior. As far as the Trinity goes, it is taught indirectly. I'm sure the Nicene Creed is a foundation for all pastors in seminary though.

It seems that you are quite the thinker, im not sure why you have resisted the doctrines of the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, I'm sure I could prove it to you, its in the Bible, but like I said, its a long debate. I've argued this with Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons for years. Church is where its at, you just have to find the right one. The people are really nice and can be very encouraging.

Steve never helps the situation. He is a frustrating man. He is smart though. He does do a lot of good and a lot of bad, just like everyone of us does. He confuses me and challenges me, but his passive stances on things snuffs out the fire of Biblical Doctrine as the Trinity, the Doctrines of Grace, and Hell. I think people just give up and go there own way thinking everything is ok. Thats a lot of trouble.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:43 pm

To the Editor, so you don't go to church? Then do you gather together for Bible Study? Prayer Group? or Worship group? I'm not sure what you mean. With out these, it is possible to be led far into the darkness as a sheep without a shepherd. You can get into much trouble and into much doctrinal error.


As I mentioned, the injuction is "two or more" and I think my fellowship with fellow believers qualifies.

Don't kid yourself, having a fellowship is no gaurantee against "doctrinal error" as you call it. Think of the Corinthians. Was it lack of fellowship that caused them to need correction by Paul? However, you are correct that it does take a group to make sure that everyone stays in that corral--doesn't get too creative with that thinking stuff. I don't think you got my point about "knocking on the door". Of course they don't. But try expressing some heterodox opinions a time or two, and see what happens.

I attend Metro Calvary Church in the Northern California Area. Its pretty cool. Nobody knocks on my door. Its pretty fun. I do have a group of people though, my friends and family who keep morally accountable. I need this a lot more though cuz as of now, especially in these hard economic times, life is very hard, but I have good encouraging Christian friends.


I am glad you have found a comfortable fellowship.

The problem with people who love doctrine and like to ponder deep truths about the Bible is that they think highly of themselves. I recently saw this in myself when I asked for prayer Sunday morning at Church. There was somebody my age who went through the same problem Im going through right now, and to my surprise, he was very knowledgeable in Doctrine and Theology; he was very encouraging. What I saw, was another perspective. Sometimes being alone with your doctrine and problems can really set you up for failure and frustration. It seems that you are quite the thinker, im not sure why you have resisted the doctrines of the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, I'm sure I could prove it to you, its in the Bible, but like I said, its a long debate. I've argued this with Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons for years. Church is where its at, you just have to find the right one. The people are really nice and can be very encouraging.


Though you didn't say it, implicit in your comment is that I think to highly of myself because I "ponder deep truths". Let me tell you a story.

I used to spend alot of time in Bible study. I was very curious academically about many things; theolgy, group dynamics, psychology and sociology and history. It was my reading in group dynamics that helped me understand why it was that my religion of birth--though I was a true believer--caused me conflicted feelings. I enjoyed the people, and I really got into the deeper matters of JW eschatology (such as it is), but I always felt as though somehow I didn't fit in.

After I left, I realized why more fully; it had nothing to do with the some basic premises they have, per se. Rather, it was structure--organization. Something terribly wrong happens to people when you stick them in rows. Imagine if you will a few people that like to get together for a mutual love, a hobby of sorts. Pick one, it doesn't matter. Let's say baking bread.

So, 3 or 4 guys or gals get together; one brings flour, another yeast, etc. They have a good time sharing recipes and chatting about life and problems and etc. The hobby acts as a reason for them to gather, but it clearly has greater implications--they are really becoming a small family--close friends that share a common love. Now, turn the page....

These people think "You know, this bread-making thing is really cool! We love it, it's fun, we get along great and we've become good friends. We should invite others." And so they do. And, over time, this small group of friends grows. Pretty soon, there are ten. Then twenty. Then thirty. It gets to the point where they have to rent a small building once a month for their "bread party" because no one's home is big enough. Soon, some who normally enjoyed making the bread, have to spend their time sending out reminders, and cleaning up after the mess, making sure there is adequate parking, etc. etc. It starts to become a job.

In a way, this is Church. Rather than small groups of believers with close fellowship, there becomes a business, with Directors and Ushers and what have you. In a small fellowship, there is greater intimacy. At a Mega-Church, you need Security Guards. Something is wrong with this picture.

The ancient Jews wanted to be like the surrounding nations. They wanted a King to fight their battles. Churchianity since around the 300s (maybe earlier) has increasingly become a business/social club with a Cross out front.

Steve never helps the situation. He is a frustrating man. ....his passive stances on things snuffs out the fire of Biblical Doctrine as the Trinity, the Doctrines of Grace, and Hell. I think people just give up and go there own way thinking everything is ok. Thats a lot of trouble.


Why is it alot of trouble? No teaching, no belief should be sacrosanct. All should stand the most rigorous scrutiny. If it is found wanting, it should be held in abeyance until a person can resolve the conflict. I am glad I found Steve's website and radio show. I first heard him while painting a house. I had read the 4 Views of Revelation book before I heard him. He was talking to his Buddhist caller and I found the way he dealt with him refreshing. After years of Walter Martin and the others, it was nice to hear someone say that some things are not as cut and dry as we think. And, it was nice to hear a radio teacher not say "God" and "Israel" like "Guawddd" and "Isssssssrayel" (just pet peaves of mine). :lol:

Some people need to have structure and a succinct belief system. Some people need to have their ducks all in a row. I'm just happy if the ducks show up.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:35 am

To the Editor, you know, I have met some people who have rebelled against have fellowship in a Church building in Sacramento. I don't think this is bad idea; a lot of Churches start as a small group is someones house then later transfer to a larger facility as the Lord adds to their numbers. However, some who do this are definitely wrong. Some examples are the Messianic Jews, some of whom I have met here in Sacramento. They have some bad doctrine. They do not celebrate Christmas and I think, the rest of the American Holidays; they don't eat bacon, meat which I love, and they celebrate Hanuka, the Sabbath and Passover, its like they went back to the Law. Whats more annoying is that they have separated themselves from American tradition . I have talked to these people before and they are out there with their doctrine. These people are a good example of doing the wrong thing.

Editor, if your fellowship meets the criteria, then your truly fellowship with the Lord, if not, you may need to change your mind about your position, and ask the Lord to lead you in the right direction. Like I said before, If you are a Christian and love Jesus you must go to Church. A church must have the following: Prayer, reading of the scriptures, a pastor/pastors who is a teacher, and leader; Elders for accountability and council, servers; singing for praise and worship, the sacraments, so people may participate in the Lords supper as he has commanded us (I know the JWS don't do this; they are sinning by not obeying Jesus commands.), and baptisms as the Lords adds people to the church, and the Church should be serving and witnessing to the community, they dont need to knock on doors, but they can... Depending on the numbers of your group, you may need a bigger facility, but it is not required. Oh yeah, The pastor must have one wife, able to teach be sober, not easily angered, patient, and able to manage his own household, and if need be, live by the Gospel meaning getting paid.

I hope this helps Editor. I hope you also revisit Jesus diety is he God or not. Read Revelation, the first couple of Chapters, and also read Hebrew the first chapter. These will change your mind especially if you have left behind the NWT bible.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:27 am


Hi John,

Well, you've opended another can of beans here. :) You caught me in a good mood, so I'll bite (metaphorically, of course). You said the following:

However, some who do this are definitely wrong. Some examples are the Messianic Jews, some of whom I have met here in Sacramento. They have some bad doctrine. They do not celebrate Christmas and I think, the rest of the American Holidays; they don't eat bacon, meat which I love, and they celebrate Hanuka, the Sabbath and Passover, its like they went back to the Law. Whats more annoying is that they have separated themselves from American tradition . I have talked to these people before and they are out there with their doctrine. These people are a good example of doing the wrong thing.


I don't have any real sympathies for Messianic Jews, but since you said a few things that I think are not too well thought out, I think I'll comment.

They do not celebrate Christmas and I think, the rest of the American Holidays


So? Have you ever done any research on these Holidays? Now, since I am no longer JW, I do participate in some Holidays, and it is primarily for the children. But, did you know that it was illegal to celebrate Christmas in New England back at the start of this Nation? Did you know that many God-fearing folk took and take umbrage to Christmas because of the outright Pagan trappings interlaced with it? Have you carefully considered whether or not Ashtar (Easter) with it's fertility eggs (Easter eggs) should be associated with our Lord's Resurrection? Something to think about.

they don't eat bacon, meat which I love


Okay... :?

they celebrate Hanuka, the Sabbath and Passover, its like they went back to the Law.


Paul says that one does not sin if they do not observe a Sabbath or a New Moon or a Festival. But he also says they don't sin if they do so observe. Messianic Judaism is troubling becuase of their emphasis on the Law, and that is where they err. But the things you mentioned are not sin.

Whats more annoying is that they have separated themselves from American tradition


How is this "more annoying"? Since when has "the American tradition(s)" had anything to do with being a Christian, or practicing Christianity? I would like to know.

A church must have the following: Prayer, reading of the scriptures


Agreed.

a pastor/pastors who is a teacher, and leader


Not so sure

Elders for accountability and council


Elders by reputation, Yes. Elders by Titled Office, No.

servers


Serving what?

singing for praise and worship


A good option, especially for those musically inclined like myself. Not a requirement though.

the sacraments, so people may participate in the Lords supper as he has commanded us (I know the JWS don't do this; they are sinning by not obeying Jesus commands.)


Table fellowship is good. The Eucharist is a study in itself. It's quite possible that this custom is an accretion that took on greater meaning then it had in the first century, but this is another conversation.

and baptisms as the Lords adds people to the church


If one desires baptism, accomodations should be made, yes.

and the Church should be serving and witnessing to the community, they dont need to knock on doors, but they can


A person's light should not be under a bushel.

Depending on the numbers of your group, you may need a bigger facility, but it is not required


Yes, else we will go down that "bread party" path, eh? :D

Oh yeah, The pastor must have one wife, able to teach be sober, not easily angered, patient, and able to manage his own household


These are the qualities found in "older men" and those "overseeing" others, yes.

and if need be, live by the Gospel meaning getting paid.



"And now I commit you to God and to the word of his undeserved kindness, which word can build you up and give you the inheritance among all the sanctified ones. I have coveted no man’s silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands have attended to the needs of me and of those with me. (Acts 20:32-34)
"Certainly you bear in mind, brothers, our labor and toil. It was with working night and day, so as not to put an expensive burden upon any one of you, that we preached the good news of God to you (1 Thessalonians 2:9)

In The Didache, The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, written around 100 AD, we find some interesting comments in this regard:

"Let every apostle that cometh unto you be received as the Lord. And he shall stay one day and, if need be, the next also, but if he stay three days he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goeth forth, let him take nothing save bread, till he reach his lodging. But if he ask money, he is a false prophet." "No prophet that ordereth a table in the Spirit shall eat of it, else he is a false prophet." "If he that cometh is a passer-by, succour him as far as you can. But he shall not abide with you longer than two or three days unless there be necessity. But if he be minded to settle among you and be a craftsman, let him work and eat. But if he has no trade, according to your understanding, provide that he shall not live idle among you, being a Christian. But if he will not do this, he is a Christmonger: of such men beware." (Didache, chapters 11 and 12).

I wonder what modern Pastors would think of this? What did Maynard G. Krebs say again? :lol:

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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jriccitelli
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Re: Trinity.

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:46 am

I really like how this is going, i knew two bible believing adults can reason this out and make it interesting and Godly. 316 you speak from the heart and i like and appreciate it, but be ready to defend what you say diplomatically. Brenden I understand your position and i like what your saying, especially about the 'church'. What do you and 316 think of my posts under 'The Church Service' ?
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3960
God bless you both in your dialog.

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:35 pm

The church must have "a pastor/pastors who is a teacher, and leader"
There no mention in the New Testament of "a pastor" in the modern sense of a single leader who does all the preaching, while those gathered together with him, sit in straight rows, as if they were spectators at an entertainment.

A "pastor" in the New Testament was tantamount to "overseer" (bishop if you prefer). There was a plurality of overseers in every church, a collegiate, consulting with one another, and in prayer, governing the local church. They were equal in authority; there was no "chief overseer". Overseers were also called "elders". The early church had a body ministry. That is, anyone could share a song, speak in prophecy, give an address to the people, minister to church in any way according to the gifts given to them.
Paidion

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jarrod
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Re: Trinity.

Post by jarrod » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:04 pm

I would enjoy fellowship with you, brother! /Jarrod
TheEditor wrote:Do I go to church? That depends on how you define "church". If by "church" you mean where two or more are gathered in my name, then Yes. If by it you mean rather, where there is a lecturer, and an ecclesiastical teaching authority that can make sure that I have my doctrine down straight, then No. Why would I? Why would I leave the church of my birth--because I knew to remain long would have meant disfellowshipping--just to join another church where, given time, some well-meaning soul such as yourself, would have the Pastor knocking on my door to make sure I was saved (believed in the trinity) and after much effort, perhaps recommend to the Board of Directors that "that Brenden fellow appears to believe errant doctrine, best to avoid him". No, not this kid. And, if you think that sort of thing doesn't happen, then I would suggest you don't understand group dynamics.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:32 pm

Greetings,

@Jarrod; Thanks! I would as well.

@JR. I missed that thread, but read through it. I think that you are on the right track. I personally think that we may be ignoring an imprtant thing; namely, the large number of people that really don't want to be in the building, but are there anyway. It's not a question of "what can we do to make these people disciples", it's "these people aren't, they're just here." My view is that many people go because their folks went, or because they like to socialize, or what have you. They aren't really there because they are interested in being there for the "right" reasons. We have taken a relatively intimate act of small fellowship and intstitutionalized it, robbing it of it's intimacy, called it "fellowship" and then wondered why it's so hard to get people to have intimacy. A family acts like a family, it doesn't hire a guy to give them a speech in an arena. :)

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:16 am

To the Editor, there is nothing wrong with Christians gathering in a building and there is nothing wrong with Christians gathering in a home. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, where ever the body of believers are is the Church of Christ. Jesus is the Head and we are the body, but we need a pastor or a group of teachers that we know. Lastly, The real problem is why should you and I fellowship? The next question is are you a Christian? This all depends on your view of Jesus. If you think he was created by the Father then we cant fellowship, and it is safe to say you are not a Christian. If you say he is only a prophet we can not fellowship and you are not a Christian. I cant call you brother if you think Jesus is not God or a man, or the Holy Spirit is not God. This would also call into question your motivations and your salvation.

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