Trinity.

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Homer
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Homer » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:57 am

We talk a lot about love (and we should). Seems to me the loving thing at times is to use a PM (private message) but we (me) often forget how our words hurt others.

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:48 pm

Like I said before, the Nicene Creed is a great doctrinal statement defending the Churches position on the Father, Jesus the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit. In 325 and 385, the 4th century Christians marked a major milestone for the Church. It was then that the Triune God was defending and establishing central biblical truths about the Son and the Holy Spirit through his Saints for centuries to come; we are benefiting from their hard work. The majority of Christian churches agree with the Nicene creed. Why are people on this forum wanting to dismiss this historical accomplishment by our 4th century bruthas? Its like saying," every man think his own way." Why reinvent the wheel?

Test the Nicene Creed yourself, is it unbiblical?

The miracle Jesus feeding the 5000 people with 2 fish and five loaves of bread proves Jesus deity. What prophet of the Old Testament did such a thing? Furthermore, no prophet of Israel ever provided the people of Israel with food the way Jesus did, he gave them food from heaven. Wasn't it the Lord that fed the Israelite's Angel's bread from heaven in the desert? Jesus did the same, providing the people of Israel food in a remote place. Jesus loved the people of Israel and provided them their needs as God did. The Bible says that Jesus is the bread of life and he has come down from to give life to the world. What prophet has come down from heaven to give life to the world. 5000 peoples needs were met through Jesus. That says he is the source of life, meaning he is God. The Father made the World through Jesus and he Fed the People of Israel through Jesus.This proves Jesus is God. Jesus is the source of Life

There is also a correlation between the Jews meeting the Lord at Mount Sinai and the Jews meeting Jesus on the mountain side. In both instances they came to meet God.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:08 am

John,

As I have said repeatedly, I have no problem if you affirm the trinity. I have no problem if anyone affirms the trinity. However, even if I affirmed it for myself, I cannot see how any of what you keep repeating over and over proves anything like the Nicene Creed. Not at all. Why do you keep repeating the same things?

This isn't about "reinventing the wheel". This is about trying to understand God's Word as acurately as possible. When you ask if the Nicene Creed is "unbiblical", I would say that the language of the Creed is definitely "extra-biblical". I find nothing like that statement of belief anywhere in the Bible. Perhaps there is a reason why God doesn't "spell it all out" for us. This is a very distinct possibility, and worthy of our consideration.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:13 am

To the Editor, let me bring down a knotch. It is my position that the N.C. should not be pushed aside, it is benificial. Lastly, I'm pretty sure you dont believe in the Trinity. Do believe Jesus is God?

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:01 pm

John316 wrote:Do believe Jesus is God?
That question can be answered either "yes" or "no" depending on what you mean by "God". If you mean that Jesus is the true, supreme God, then let Jesus Himself answer that question:

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

Jesus clearly addressed his Father as "the ONLY true [or "real"] God". Also by using that little word "and", Jesus indicated that he was someone other than "the only true God".

According to the Online Bible Greek lexicon, the meaning of "αληθινος" is:

1) that which has not only the name and resemblance, but the real nature corresponding to the name, in every respect corresponding to the idea signified by the name, real, true genuine
1a) opposite to what is fictitious, counterfeit, imaginary, simulated or pretended
1b) it contrasts realities with their semblances
1c) opposite to what is imperfect defective, frail, uncertain

2) true, veracious, sincere
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:14 pm

Who is Jesus? A prophet like Isaiah? A king like David? An angel like Gabriel or Michael? One of the four living creatures that sing "Holy, Holy, Holy" ? One of the Cherubim that the Lord sits above? An Apostle like Paul or Peter? You choose Editor. You Paidon

Imagine singing to one of those, or praying to one of them, or crying to one of them, or throwing yourself at the feet of one of them in worship. Imagine singing to Jesus, "Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so little ones to him belong they are Weak but he is strong" Knowing that he is one God's creatures.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:29 pm

Who is Jesus? A prophet like Isaiah? A king like David? An angel like Gabriel or Michael? One of the four living creatures that sing "Holy, Holy, Holy" ? One of the Cherubim that the Lord sits above? An Apostle like Paul or Peter? You choose Editor. You Paidon

Imagine singing to one of those, or praying to one of them, or crying to one of them, or throwing yourself at the feet of one of them in worship. Imagine singing to Jesus, "Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so little ones to him belong they are Weak but he is strong" Knowing that he is one God's creatures.


Hi John,

You have presented a false choice above. Since you asked me a direct question, I will give you an answer that I am comfortable affirming. I believe that The Word is and was what God is and was, as John 1:1 states. I believe that there is some difference of opinion as to what it means to say Jesus "is God" as Paidion pointed out. When I was an Arian in my beliefs as a JW, I always envisioned the Father drawing from Himself--His own essence--to create the Son. So, in that sense, I could never understand objecting to the notion that Jesus is "God"--one in "essence" with the Father.

Now that I don't style myself as an Arian, I feel less constrained to be "certain" in my head about Jesus' relationship with His Father. Jesus directed us to the Father; his whole objective was to make known his Father's name--His personality and mind--to his disciples. He paved a road to an intimacy with the Father that prior to his Advent was not available.

Jesus sought not his own will:
My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work. (John 4:34)

I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 5:30)

I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 6:38)

Jesus was aware of the nature of his relationship to his Father. After he was raised, he said:

I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God. (John 20:17)

After he ascended, he said to John:

The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. (Revelation 3:12)

I am confident that Jesus understands how his words could imply a relationship between himself and the Father, that the trinitarian formula runs afoul of. That being the case, why were we not given a codified Nicene-creed-like statement from him, so that the matter could be closed? Perhaps it is not so much what God and Christ think of the formula, but what others have made out of it that causes some of us trouble.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:18 am

Hi Editor, this is simple to understand. As I said before, I teach adults with disabilities and they get it. Jesus did say, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." They get it, they are blessed this way, their mind is simple. They understand that in the city of Nain,when Jesus raised a widows only son to life during a funeral procession that this miracle was enough for them to believe Jesus can do anything; therefore, they realize that he is God. They don't know anything about the prophets and probably never will, but they know that Jesus can do anything and that they need him for eternal life. They love him and are concerned with morality proving that truly believe.

You explained the relationship between the Father and the Son, but didn't explain that Jesus is truly God in human form. "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." Phil 2:6

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:29 am

Hi John,

I'm truly sorry to say that this is becoming like a merry-go-round. You repeatedly use Jesus' miracles as some kind of "proof" of the trinity. What can I say? Like I said at the outset of this exchange, if believing the trinity brings you comfort and helps in your walk with God and Christ, who am I to take away from that? I have done my best to give clear and concise answers to your questions of me. You continue to merely repeat the same things over and over again, none of which support your position. I didn't set out to have a debate about the trinity, and, thanks to the nature of the conversation, I didn't. :)

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:18 am

To the Editor, well I guess that sums up our conversation. I could have loaded the conversation proving the deity of Christ and the deity of the Holy Spirit, but I didnt want to overwhelm you cuz like you said this was not a debate. The miracles that Jesus did were so much greater than the prophets and the claims that he made about himself are enough to prove that he is God, but God didnt stop there he has given us statements in the Bible that support his diety. In revelation Jesus says he is the ,"The first and the Last" just like Yaweh speaks of himself in the Old testament, "I am the first and the last". Verses like these also confirm his diety.

All Im saying if you dont believe Jesus and the Father are equal in power, strength, character, and being, then you are denying the scriptures, are you saved I don't know, your denying the Lord Jesus his rightful place as the Lord God Almighty. You need to ask the Lord for help. I can show you more if you need help. Do you go to church?

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