Trinity.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:03 pm



Okay John, it's time the gloves came off.

You wrote the following:

To the Editor, there is nothing wrong with Christians gathering in a building and there is nothing wrong with Christians gathering in a home. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, where ever the body of believers are is the Church of Christ. Jesus is the Head and we are the body


I never said there was anything "wrong" with Christians gathering in a home or a building. Those are your words of choice. What I said was, that something seems to happen (not positive) when you put them in rows. What I said was, fellowship was, in the first century, an intimate thing shared usually by a family or two, and any others. Alot of these folks were slaves, just how free do you think they were to trot off to a mega-church? Why do you think so many of the admonitions in Scripture about sin confession and table fellowship seem more institutional and difficult to practice in a mega-church? Its one thing to go to a handful of close friends in a home to confess your sins. It's another when an embarassed woman has to go to a man she hardly knows to bare her soul. If our contemporary paradigm about church seems to cause difficulty in practicing the intimacy of the first-century fellowship, maybe we need to re-examine our contemporary structures and not "shoe-horn" that intamcy into a church building.

By the way, you never addressed those verses or the quote from the Didache. I didn't expect you would.

but we need a pastor or a group of teachers that we know


You would "know" them if you were their close friends. I dare say, moat parishoners do not "know" their pastor. What they have done is taken the word of a group of men charged with handing out diplomas and trusted their judgment.

Lastly, The real problem is why should you and I fellowship?


I don't know that we should as we have never met. If we did meet, and you wanted to read the Bible together, I would have no objection however.

The next question is are you a Christian?


I guess you'll either take me at my word or you won't.

This all depends on your view of Jesus. If you think he was created by the Father then we cant fellowship, and it is safe to say you are not a Christian


It's safe to say you haven't read alot of history. You may be surprised at the roster of names that you have come to admire, that by your criteria you can't fellowship with.

I cant call you brother if you think Jesus is not God or a man, or the Holy Spirit is not God. This would also call into question your motivations and your salvation.


I'll ignore the "not calling me brother" line, as I have become inured to this sort of thing. But I really have to wonder about the line about my "motivations". What exactly does that mean? I am sure there are several that regularly post here who would want to know exactly how you call into question their "motives" if they do not call the Holy Spirit "God".

John, at the outset of this post I said that it was time the "glove came off", don't take this the wrong way, but here goes: I'm sure you are well-meaning. I am sure you volunteer your time in good works for the right reasons. I have no reason to doubt that you love the Lord. But you are either, a.) A young man in his twenties or, b.) one of those annoying men in his late thirties or forties that tries to be a "hip" young Christian, all heart and no mind. Either way, it's time to grow up. It's time to do some reading and study. It's time to learn about WHY many people have varied opinions. It's time to address some of these issues in an honest manner. These issues do not go away because you plug your ears and close you eyes and make noises. It's time to step out of your comfort zone. No growth comes without pain.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:29 pm

To the editor, I actually agree with you on some points. First, You are correct in saying that some people don't even know their pastors, but that is a hypothetical statement, you have not been to every church so it wouldn't be logical to say this is the case in every mega church or church. Besides Mega Churches utilize a small or community groups that foster intimate relationships. But if you go to a church of fourty, as I did, I got to spend a lot of time with my pastor: BBQ's, Retreats, Mens group, Prayer meetings, and Theology study. As of now, I attend a lot bigger church of 200 people.

Lastly, because you are really educated you will be held more responsible for you choices as the Jews were held more responsible for their choice to reject Law of God, God as their king who rescued them from Egypt, the prophets who they persecuted and stoned, the Apostles who they also persecuted and stoned and killed, and lastly the Messiah, the Son of God whom they received up and close and whom they also rejected and eventually murdered.

You have rejected the Son of God, that's what it seems anyways, because you still have never answered my questions concerning the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. But if that is the case; that is, you do not believe these doctrines and reject them, then you are not a Christian and have other motivations of spreading lies about Jesus and the Holy Spirit although you have left the Watch Tower. Your not ignorant. You made your choice, if I am correct about your position. Then if this is so, then you still stand as an enemy of the cross.

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:38 pm

So this is Steve's biggest blunder as Editor stated, Its time to grow up and learn that people have varied opinions. This is the rotten fruit produced by Steve's ministry, though he does have some good fruit. He does do good things through his ministry don't get me wrong. I'm sure the rotten fruit comes from his approach on Hell and passiveness on the Trinity.Some people are taking steves approach as you have your truth and I have my truth about doctrine cuz nobody really knows. He says this both about hell and about the trinity. Nobody really knows.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:15 pm

John,

What can I say. I stated in one of my posts (you did read them, didn't you?) That I believe that the Word is What ho theos is, as John 1:1 states. The problem is that you are so wedded to a particular idealogy, that your thinking has become clouded. You equate creedal formula with discipleship. You only believe this to be "rotten fruit" because you have been innoculated by the creedal system, much as the Jews were innoculated from accepting Christ because He didn't come on their terms to shore up the religious system they were wedded to.

I am glad you had the chance to fellowship with a smaller group of 40. This is at least more tenable for fellowship than the 200 member church you now attend. If that's what you want, then go ahead.

Maybe others here are inclined to not step in the same mess I have by responding to you. Perhaps they see the futility of the discussion and have rather chosen to let me deal with this while they watch at a safe distance with field goggles. :lol: But I will say this, even those on this forum that are in disageement with me on some issues have not been as certain in their pronouncement upon me as you have. To style me "an enemy of the cross"? On what basis, sir, do you make this statement? Do you know that Paul was referring to Gnostic Antinomians when he wrote this? Is this what you are accusing me of?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Homer
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Homer » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:30 pm

Well, my 2 cents is that Jesus was not the Son until begotten in and born of the virgin Mary. Prior to that He was "The Word", and was thus coetaneous with the Father. God "spoke" creation into existence, thus nothing that exists came into being apart from "The Word". I also believe the Old Testament "Angel of the Lord" was the pre-incarnate Christ.
I am glad you had the chance to fellowship with a smaller group of 40. This is at least more tenable for fellowship than the 200 member church you now attend. If that's what you want, then go ahead.
But I do think you folks are confused regarding fellowship. If we are walking in the light, we have fellowship even though we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart and do no even know each other:

1 John 1:6-7 (NASB)

6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7. but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So all those "walking in the light" are in fellowship, like it or not :D .

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:42 pm

I say the enemy of the cross because the Jews wanted disciples that followed the Law and the rituals with it. They were basing their righteousness on works rather than Faith in Jesus Christ. They set their minds on the basic principals of the world such as dont handle dont touch dont taste. He warned them not be cheated and deceived by empty philosophy and the traditions of men, but rather rooted, grounded and established built up in our faith in Christ, not by holidays and circumcision. For the sake of the conversation, I used this verse to illustrate anybody who rejects the scripture for what it says. If the scripture says that Jesus is God it must be true.

So maybe if you can just tell me plainly whether you believe that Jesus is God that would be good. The funny thing is I dont know your position. I know you reject the Nicene Creed, and the trinity. I also dont know what Ho theos means. If you could explain that. BUt anybody who dosnt agree with church, or the trinity, there is something strange about that. It just is not American. I just dont get it. I would understand church houses in other countries, but in America that is a little starnge. Also rejecting the trinity also seems un American. Its just strange. So maybe you could clarify. Becuase maybe you need help, which then I could help you with scripture.

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john6809
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john6809 » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:19 pm

Perhaps they see the futility of the discussion and have rather chosen to let me deal with this while they watch at a safe distance with field goggles.
:lol: :lol:

Indeed, it appears futile. I posted a fair amount on this forum when I first joined. It took me a while to recognise that the people who post most regularly here are at a level considerably above my paygrade. Humbling experience, it was. I am (usually) much more careful about what I say now.

Even to my shallow understanding, John316yes seems to have a much weaker grasp of the subject matter at hand. And, in his eyes, I would fall into the same category as Steve, passive about the doctrine of the trinity, since I haven't made a decision. I may not know enough about it, but if I died today, I wouldn't expect to be judged harshly for it - a man can only take in a certain amount of information at a time.

What men will be judged for is whether or not they obeyed Jesus' commands - including the ones to love one another and not to judge one another. Each servant answers to God for himself. On that note, it is interesting that Brenden stands accused of heresy or, worse yet, being unsaved, and yet, has conducted himself in this discussion in a manner that very closely resembles how Jesus says we should treat one another. John, you seem unconcerned with throwing about all sorts of harsh and judgemental statements.

One thing I have learned since I started reading here is how uncritical my thinking has been. I have been surprised and humbled at how easily I have simply accepted mainstream teaching on many subjects of discussion here. I think it was laziness on my part. I didn't desire to know God as much as I desired the things of this world. It requires a significant effort on our parts, to seek out the truth. Without searching with humility and in the power of the Spirit, we are likely to remain blind, not only to our own biases, but to the truth.

It reminds me of a movie I watched years ago, "The Matrix." The vast majority of people went about their daily routines completely unaware of the fact that their reality was only a figment of their imagination. A 'remnant' of thinking people knew something was not quite as it seemed. They searched until they found the truth. The mainstream civilisation didn't. If there was even an inkling that something didn't quite seem right, they didn't question it. One man, even after knowing and experiencing "real life", chose to be sent back to the illusion.

I have spent enough time in the camp of the closed-minded. I'd rather stand with those who love the truth more than anything. It puts me on uncomfortable footing at times, but I have never felt more alive and with a closer relationship to God. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
"My memory is nearly gone; but I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Savior." - John Newton

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:35 pm

The Bible never says that Jesus became the Son of God in a particular moment in time, otherwise he wouldn't be the the eternal Son of God. God does not become anything he is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Debate finished! Is Jesus God, Jesus said, I am the "First and the last." Debate over! All the arguments have been subdued in one minute. That was easy. Lets all take deep breath! AHHHHHH! good? Good. Amen? Amen.

If you dont believe these then I guess I cant help you. Your all of age, no excuses for ignorance.

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:41 pm

Funny though lol. Not trying offend anybody here but were all adults here. If you reject the scripture, that is you fault. We need accept responsibility. If you know you are doing this please change.

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Homer
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Homer » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:05 pm

otherwise he wouldn't be the the eternal Son of God
Could you point me to the place in scripture, not in a creed, where we find that Jesus is an eternal Son?

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