Trinity.

Discuss topics raised by callers on the radio program
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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:30 pm

Thanks for letting me reread the Nicene Creed. I'm not sure it helped.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:13 pm

Sorry that it did not help Editor, but protestant and evangelical agree with the majority of these statements all over the USA; we have really good teachers here in the states, and I would try really hard to find some good teachers. John MacArthur, John Piper, and RC Sproul have been really helpful in my understanding of the Scriptures, check them out. It seems that your still battling with your past.

Man I'm really sorry about that man, that's a real bummer... watch out, keep an eye on your doctrine or you might just find yourself fighting against the Lord.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:58 pm

Hi John,

I'm sure you mean well. I am familiar with the teachers you mention. I am sure they are sincere. Yet, words like "stentorian" and "doctrinaire" keep popping into my head when I listen to them.

I am sure that you are right, to some extent, that I bring my past theological biases with me. However, I have shed much of what I used to believe. And, as I have grown in my knowledge of the Scriptures and stretch my mind to embrace concepts that previously I would have believed to be error, I have also realized that Christianity is not a list of "bullet points". In fact, the more I read the Gospels, the more impressed I am that we have not, as believers since the first century, been very much different than our Jewish sectarian predecessors. It's just that our "bullet points" are different.

If the Son of God returns to judge all of Christendom tomorrow, on what basis would He judge? Would he look at the plethora of sects claiming to follow Him and see which one had the most "correct" theologically? Or, would he judge us "individually according to our deeds"? Would our view of transubstantiation versus consubstantiation be the determining factor? Or, would it rather be the fact that two groups refused one another table fellowship because the other was of a different mind on the matter?

"Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God." (John 3:19-21)

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:49 pm

To the Editor, You mentioned transubstantiation, the act that the bread and wine during the Lord supper actually changes into the actual body and blood of Christ; this is a mystical thing cuz I dont remember anything changn, but I'm pretty sure Martin Luther believed this to the end; somebody I respect. But when it comes to the identity of Christ, we are on red alert!!! If you don't know who Jesus is by the time you meet him on judgment, you might find yourself guilty of sin.

Are you denying the deity of Christ?

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:47 am

HI John,

Luther believed the view I mentioned above "CONsubstantiation".

As to the "theos" of Christ; The issue I have is with the phrasology of the NT Greek in John 1:1. Since there is some degree of debate, I am comfortable in affiming that the Logos shares in whatever "theos" is conveying in this passage. I cannot affirm that John is drawing a "formula" here, because he clearly is not. He is telling us that the "Logos" was in the beginning with "the God" and that what "the God" was, is of the same essnece or nature of what the Logos was. I also have questions as to the specificity of the word "god" as an adjective, and the word "divine" (theios in the Greek) which is the word "divine nature" also translated "Godhead" which interestingly is the same Greek word used in the following three passages:

"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead (theios) is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."
Act 17:29

"According as his divine power (theios) hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature (theios), having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
2Pe 1:3, 4

The passage seems to indicate that believers are sharers in the "godhead" (whatever that means). Either way, I believe after much study that there is no way for my mind to satisfactorily maintain the trinity in its codified form. And I can tell you this with utmost confidence:

Over many years of conversations with trinitarians, both lay and clergy, there isn't even a concensus on how they apprehend it. If I had a dollar for every time I had to correct a trinitarian as to how he is "supposed" to believe the trinity, well.....Given that as a fact, I have a hard time believing that God is some kind of Cosmic Groucho Marx who says "Close, but no cigar. To bad you didn't quite apprehend my esoteric qualities properly."

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:42 am

Like I said Brendon, I'm really sorry that your past dealings with the JW's has really left a scar in your mind. The only person who can heal that scar is Jesus. The only person who can justify you, and wash you, sanctify you is the Holy Spirit. Like I said before, people like Steve really don't know what they're doing to people when they say, "Can't we just all get along."

Let me just say this: I work with adults with mental disabilities; they are able to function in society to a degree, but there like little children. We go on several outings a month and during those outings we are usually on foot. As we walk together, we sing songs about Jesus and I get a cance to tell them about some of the miracles he has done. One of those miracles is when Jesus fed 5000 people with 2 fish and five loaves of bread. Then we imagine what that will be like, one of them went to a Britanny Spears concert so they used that for a picture. Then I say do you think she could feed all those people with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread, do you think the president could do that, and they say no, then I say who can do that? They say Jesus. They understand that it is Jesus who gives us life; more than that, life eternal. I also say what happens if you dont eat? They say the Hospital or they will die. Then I say if we dont have Jesus what will happen we will die, will we go to heaven? They say no we will go to a bad place, I say its hell. So we need Jesus.

They understand that Jesus is God. They know he made the world and they know nobody can do the things that Jesus did. And that without him they can not live. That proves hes God. Its simple. They believe this and as far as I know, they know Jesus and are known by Jesus. They know Him more than you do and they are disabled, dont make things complicated Brendon. Read Jesus miracles and see that Jesus is God.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:02 pm


Hi John,

You wrote:

The only person who can justify you, and wash you, sanctify you is the Holy Spirit.


Now you presume He hasn't done so already? You do realize that what you said IS actually the textbool definition of "judging", don't you?

They know Him more than you do and they are disabled


I don't doubt for a minute that God can move in the lives of the mentally handicapped. But I doubt any one of them could explain the trinity to your satisfaction (not to mention undertand it).

dont make things complicated Brendon. Read Jesus miracles and see that Jesus is God.


You may be right in your understanding. But you do realize that the miracles do not prove his identity, don't you? Else then, Moses was God; Elijah was God; the Apostles were God, etc.

Who is "making things complicated" John? The one that says he doesn't have all the answers? Or the one who makes salvation predicated upon explaining a certain interpretation of an esoteric doctrine? Have you really taken a good look in the mirror John?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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steve
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Re: Trinity.

Post by steve » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:34 pm

john316yes,

Since you characterize my position as "Why can't we all just get along?" and you are opposed to it, this must mean that you are not desirous to get along with other disciples of Jesus who do not share your particular opinions. I find your posts naive and rude. I chalk this up to the assumption that you are probably very young—both in years and in the faith—and inexperienced in communicating with adults. Am I right?

It is possible for one to be banned from this forum for rudeness (though for little else!). I am going to have to ask you to show respect to other correspondents here. I'm not sure you know what that means, and you probably think I am saying you cannot argue for your positions vociferously here, if you are able.

However, I get the distinct impression that you do not know how terribly out of your league you appear in your dialogue with TheEditor—yet you talk down to him as if you were his superior. Frankly, I find it embarrassing—for you! Please note and emulate the gracious manner of dialogue that most others conduct here, and see if you can at least pretend to respect people whom you clearly do not understand. There is no scriptural mandate that anyone else agree with your opinions.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Trinity.

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:44 am

I know what it is like to have someone talk down to you as if they were their superior, and I suspect everyone here has made mistakes, and everyone here is a sinner. I hope no one is judging anything other than doctrine. I believe we are all guilty, but God is true. I would hate to flush the trinity down the toilet just because we don’t know how to be kind and careful with words.

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:39 am

WHAT!!!

JR, is that what you get from Steve's words of caution?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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