Trinity.

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john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:39 pm

So my point is as I have been trying to make is that without the Nincene Creed maybe we would all be lost. It was in 325 and 381 AD that the Church planted their roots in the truth and defense of the Bible, Jesus said, "You are the light of the world--like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden. " Mathew 5:14 Today We as Christians are benefiting from our Christian brothers of the 4th century. The Lord gave them the task of establishing these doctrines for future generations. I can prove to you the diety of Christ probably because of these creeds.

These are for the defense of the Gospel. Steve seems not to care.

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steve
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Re: Trinity.

Post by steve » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:11 pm

So my point is as I have been trying to make is that without the Nincene Creed maybe we would all be lost. It was in 325 and 381 AD that the Church planted their roots in the truth and defense of the Bible
This seems like a peculiar interpretation of history. Are you saying the ante-Nicene fathers did not defend or have their roots in the Bible? This would include Polycarp, Clement, Justin, Irenaeus, and a lot of others. As I read their works, they seem very much to believe and defend the biblical message. Is it your opinion that they did not do a good job of remaining faithful to the true message, and that the Nicene Council was the first body of Christian leaders to stand up for the truth?
Today We as Christians are benefiting from our Christian brothers of the 4th century. The Lord gave them the task of establishing these doctrines for future generations.
The Lord gave the apostles this task, and gave all succeeding generations of Christians the task of preserving and propagating the apostolic doctrines (2 Tim.2:2). The fourth century fathers were no more in a position to establish orthodoxy than were the Christians of any century. Some generations of Christians dropped the ball, however, and did not remain loyal to the gospel as the apostles taught it. This led to the apostasy of the Middle Ages.

I can prove to you the diety of Christ probably because of these creeds.
We don't need the creeds to prove the deity of Christ. If this can be done at all (as I think it can), it can be done directly from scripture. If one needs the creeds to prove the trinity, from what authorities did the writers of the creeds prove it before they were written?
These are for the defense of the Gospel. Steve seems not to care.
Care about what? The creeds? or the defense of the Gospel? What makes you think that I don't care about this?

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:37 pm

So Steve, You mentioned people like Polycarp whom I have read little about mainly, his last days being escorted to be executed and how he was somehow had connection with Apostle John (I read this a while back). That guy sounds pretty cool as well as people like Justin Martyr. My point again is this, of course anybody when they read the Bible should come to the conclusion that Jesus is more than a man, more than a teacher, more than a prophet, and more than a teacher, but Christians still need teachers. The Nincene Creed was a doctrine created by teachers, which have influenced Christians through the ages for the greater good.

Drop the ball on this, and it is back to the dark ages Steve. We dont to reinvent the wheel. You cant leave people to their own interpretations. We need structure and organization, its not everybody to himself.

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steve
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Re: Trinity.

Post by steve » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:06 pm

Drop the ball on [the trinity doctrine], and it is back to the dark ages Steve.
The Dark Ages were after Nicea. The Church of the Dark Ages fully embraced the trinity doctrine.

I am not implying that the trinity doctrine caused the Dark Ages to be dark, but it was not for lack of that doctrine that the church became corrupt.

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:48 pm

Steve I used the dark ages as a figurative statement, but what I was saying was that the trinity doctrine keeps people coming up with crazy ideas, it seems that some people on this forum are still in the dark about who Jesus is. The trinity doctrine would help clarify things, but people want to go their own way, and Steve you defiantly dont help the problem with the attitude" cant we all just get along?"

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steve
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Re: Trinity.

Post by steve » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:12 am

Well, I think Christians are commanded to get along. Why not?

This doesn't mean that we don't discuss our theological differences as brothers. It should be obvious that we believe in doing that.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:13 am

John,

I'm sure this was a Freudian slip:

the trinity doctrine keeps people coming up with crazy ideas

:D

However, I am amazed that you feel the trinity doctrine would "clarify things" for believers such as myself, who have issues with it. What exactly do you mean by that? Since you apparently have not seen fit to respond to either of my previous two posts to you.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:32 am

To the Editor, first I would say, if your an ex JW as you say, I sincerely hope by now you have some really awesome Christian friends to encourage, comfort, and exhort you to good works; because as it is for anybody who does a 180 from a sinful lifestyle, whether it be drug addiction, which I had the privilege today to encourage and exhort an ex heroin addict, a homosexual life style, alcoholism, or a sexual immoral life style which are some of the life styles that I have been acquainted with in my own ministries and of which, I myself have turned away from; that is , by God's grace, friends are one factor in our Christian walk that is crucial for success. Turning from a cult is rough because now you have to challenge your own theology and correct your errors and misunderstanding of scripture and submit your mind to the true Bible; it is no easy task.

That being said, you have said you have problems with the Nincene Creed, well I do as well, but only with one statement. Lets looks at the creed itself and see if it is entirely unscriptural. Here it is I numbered them 1 - 13, the only number I disagree with would be maybe 12, because I'm not sure if they are referring water baptism or regeneration by the Holy Spirit, but Im thinking it is water baptism in which case I would disagree with; because thanks to the reformation of the 16th century we recognize that a man is saved not by works or rituals, but by God's Grace, our Faith, the work of Christ, by Scripture alone, for the glory of God.

THE NICENE CREED (381 A.D.)

1.) We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
of all that is, seen and unseen.


2.) We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.

3.) Through him all things were made.

4.) For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

5.) For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.

6.) On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

7.) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

8.) We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

9.) With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.

10.) He has spoken through the Prophets.

11.) We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

12.) We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

13.) We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Editor, check this link out it is a really good essay by Rc Sproul on this very discussion were having. Tell me what you think.
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/ ... ian-creed/

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:00 pm

John 316, the original Nicene Creed did not say, "eternally begotten". It said, "begotten before all ages". At first, the Trinitarians found this phrase acceptable. But later Trinitarians realized that it was not consistent with Trinitarian doctrine. So they changed it to "eternally begotten".

THE NICENE CREED
This is the original creed set forth at Nicea, A.D. 325. It was altered later. Even later forms retained the statement that the Son of God was begotten as an act of God.
It was only much later that the phase was changed to “eternally begotten”.


We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, only begotten, that is, of the substance of the Father;
God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father,
Through whom all things were made; both things in heaven and things on earth;
Who for us people, and for our salvation, came down, and was incarnate, and was made man;
He suffered, and was raised again the third day,
And ascended into heaven
And he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead,
And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
And in one baptism of repentance for deliverance from sins,
And in one holy universal Church,
And in the resurrection of the flesh,
And in everlasting life.
Paidion

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:12 pm

THE CAESAREAN CREED
At the council of Nicæa (325), Eusebius of Caesarea suggested the adoption of the creed of his own church:

We believe in one God, the Father All-sovereign, the maker of things visible and invisible; And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God of God, Light of Light, Only-begotten Son, Firstborn of all creation, begotten of the Father before all ages, through whom also all things were made; who was made flesh for our salvation and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again on the third day, and ascended to the Father, and shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead; We believe also in the Holy Spirit.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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