Trinity.

Discuss topics raised by callers on the radio program
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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:15 am

Hi John,

You quoted Jesus statement about the "narrow door" and I thought it ironic, since Matthew places this parable after Jesus healing of a woman on the Sabbath, for which he was censured by the Jewish religious leaders. Given that, would you say this "vigorous exertion" has more to do with actions or academia?

On the Watchtower; Yes, it's a shame that the wealth the WTB&TS has isn't put to better use. They could do more with those presses than shovel forth the good news of the Organization. Same with the Mormons and Catholics I suppose. But what of them?

Remember, in reading about Jesus ministry, we mainly read of his sharing truth. When he did aggressively take others to task, he seemed more concerned with the spirit and behavior of his opposers than with the the flaws in their belief systems. The false beliefs of the Jewish sects are only given scant mention, if any, as polemical presentations seem to be more a feature of the post-Apostolic church.

You seem to believe that it is wrong to believe that "the standard of salvation is godly living, theology, evangelism and purity". You may be correct. And yet, what is the "trinity" if not theology? And what is it about this particular theology that makes it life-saving? If this notion were so crucial, wouldn't it be emblazened upon every page of Scripture, rather than having to be doped out by people in piece-meal fashion?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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steve
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Re: Trinity.

Post by steve » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:56 am

Hi john316yes,

You wrote:
Although they may [have gotten] some things correct in the Bible and have interpreted them correctly, they are automatically disqualified from being in the Kingdom, the very thing they boast about, because they are misinformed about the identity of Christ. Their inability to understand Jesus identity automatically and completely disqualifies them from eternal life as it says, "the stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone ..."
I know that you already think I am too soft on non-trinitarians, so I take quite a risk in addressing this segment of your post. I have to ask you, very sincerely, How do you know these people are "disqualified from being in the kingdom," and that "Their inability to understand Jesus [sic] identity automatically and completely disqualifies them from eternal life..."? I am not arguing that any particular JW is saved. I am simply wondering how we can know that their ignorance on this point damns them.

You quote the scripture about the stone rejected by the builders. This does not mention the stone honestly misunderstood by the builders. It is my understanding that the JWs do not reject Jesus, but they do seem to misunderstand who He is. In God's sight (and in theirs) are they rejecting Jesus, or only rejecting our trinitarian understanding of Him? I don't know the answer, since I am not inside their heads (nor inside God's). You believe that you know the answer, so I am just asking how you know this.

It was not scripture that specifically excluded Arians from God's family. That was done by the Council of Nicea. If the Council did us a service in clarifying the deity of Christ, it did not enhance our ability to judge whom God accepts or rejects. We must look to scripture, and to the hearts of individuals, for that information. According to my best understanding, the scripture tells us that God is triune, but it does not say that the ability to understand such a concept is the basis of salvation.
So why is the Trinity Doctrine crucial? It is because people can be misled and misinformed about their salvation if the standard of salvation is godly living, theology, evangelism and purity and not a correct understanding of the Triune God.
It seems to me that the description of the unsaved that you give here is a description of Moses, David, the prophets, the parents of John the Baptist and John himself, Mary and Joseph, and all the disciples during their time with Jesus on earth. I find no evidence that any of these people had "a correct understanding of the Triune God," in their day—yet, you believe that this is the one point that would have saved them, had they understood. Do you not think that their love for, and trust in, God (whom they understood imperfectly), and their attempts to follow and obey Him, sufficed for Him to reckon them His people?

You have made salvation contingent on one's ability to understand very sophisticated theological concepts. However, understanding such concepts is a function of intelligence working on available information. People have differing levels of intelligence, and unequal access to information.

A small child and a severely mentally challenged adult, while loving God with all his/her heart, may not be able to grasp the concept of the trinity. People like that are lacking in the apprehension of complex metaphysics, but might they, nonetheless, be saved due to their love and trust toward God as best they can understand Him?

On the other hand, there are those who do not lack intelligence, but who have not been given sufficient information to allow them to know the trinity doctrine (This would include all the Old Testament saints, and probably many today who have not been well-taught as to the scriptural teaching on the subject).

When God looks upon a Jehovah's Witness, He sees someone with a certain amount of intelligence (no more or less than what He Himself has granted), who has been exposed to a certain kind of information, and who has made a certain response in his heart to what he has heard. On what basis does God judge such a person? On what basis should I judge him?

I love that paragraph in Thomas a' Kempis's Of the Imitation of Christ (first chapter):

What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it. For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity, except to love God and serve Him alone.

This man was a Roman Catholic, which is in a category you listed among those not saved in your last post. Yet, he believed in the trinity as much as you and I do. More important, he seemed to understand the heart of God and the scriptural teaching on this matter better than do many evangelicals.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:53 pm

Hi Steve,

You said:

It is my understanding that the JWs do not reject Jesus, but they do seem to misunderstand who He is. In God's sight (and in theirs) are they rejecting Jesus, or only rejecting our trinitarian understanding of Him? I don't know the answer, since I am not inside their heads (nor inside God's). You believe that you know the answer, so I am just asking how you know this.


I think I can speak to this. Coming from my personal experience as a JW, I can say that the WT itself has varied as to it's emphasis on Jesus. During the 1930s, much became made of the "name" Jehovah. Up until the 1970s, more emphasis was given to the Father as Jehovah, than to His Son as Jesus. Probably around the early 1990s a shift towards Jesus began.

For myself, I can say that I viewed Jesus as God's Son. That Jesus was as exalted a being as could be envisioned, save for the Father. This was the view of my fellow JWs, to one degree or another. The problem was not with not recognizing the Son. The problem always was with focusing on a "works" based righteousness and directing people to the WT Organization as a sort of "mediatrix" if you will.

After I left and reflected, I believe that there were sincere individuals, misguided in their faith, that were Christians in spite of their affiliation with the WT. I remember certain ones doing the "right thing" in spite of whatever Organization policy was. If a person does what is right in God's eyes under threat of being "expelled from the Synagogue" such as the blind man in John's gospel was, then I believe they are Disciples, regardless of their affiliations.

Regards Brenden.
,
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:50 pm

The Nincene Creed as I understand it, was written as a defense for the deity of Christ and later for the Diety of the Holy Spirit. From what I have read, there were many controversies surrounding the deity of Christ in the early church such as Arianism, Neotorianism, Modalism and Adoptionism, which were countered with councils and creeds by the church. The type of heresies that appeared in the early 4th and 5th centuries are the same type of heresies that appear in our day by small and great teachers: heresies are incorrect views of God. So it would be wise to keep a close eye on your doctrine otherwise you may be led astray. Is that what you want? Do you want people to be lead astray? And have false view of God? Is it correct to think that Jesus is created? Is correct to think that Jesus at one point as man became God? Is it correct to think that God is not three yet One?

All the cults in our day agree with the heresies of yesterday, in some form or another.
Jesus said to the Jews who did not believe that they were the children of the Devil and they had no room for God's word in their heart. He said Woe to them. He called them hypocrites and that they shut the door of the Kingdom of God in peoples faces.

So Steve and the Editor, if you want to say to everybody lets all get along, your making a mistake. Jesus never did that.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:09 am

Hi John,

I started my conversation with you by asking why you felt the trinity was an important doctrine, and how it helped in your walk with Christ. You gave me what I thought a sincere, heart-felt answer. But I don't know that the answer you gave for why it nurtures you, works for me. And, I suspect that there are many others for whom it wouldn't work. That is meant in no way to denigrate your position, just to state the facts.

You now in your latest post make a comparison between Jesus words to the Pharisees of his day, to non-trinitarians of today. Is this the counsel you gleaned from Jesus' words? Briefly, here are the indictments Jesus brought up in the verses you quoted from:

Because they give the tenth of the mint and the rue and of every other vegetable, but have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness
Because they love the front seats in the synagogues and the greetings in the marketplaces
Because they load men with loads hard to be borne, but do not touch the loads themselves
Because they shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men
Because they say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is under obligation.’
Because they strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel
Because they also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Because they are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

I fail to see how any of this has anything to do with the Pharisees beliefs about the esoteric nature of God. It appears that Jesus was concerned with something more profound than a concept held in the mind.

Since apparently our view of the esoteric nature of God is of utmost importance, why stop there? Isn't our view of the Atonement of equal importance? Which of the five views of that are correct? What of the Intermediate State? What of the fate of the unevangelized? Eschatology? Soteriology? Pneumatology? Theodicy? Hamartiology? Where does it end?

My issue is not with those that like to study and come to conclusions, or at least understand these things, it is the nature of Creeds that act as tent pins driven down and separating brothers, one from another that I object to. It is the setting up of standards that are, to one degree or another, somewhat capricious, and then using those standards as to whom to allow into fellowship.

Paul lists "sects" or "party spirit" as one of the "works of the flesh" in Galatians chapter 5. The Greek word used in this passage is hairesis, our English word "heresy" comes from it. Hairesis was not considered a bad word. It basically means "to choose", and it is a word that was used for any group of people who had common belief's or subscribed to a particular school of thought. Unfortunately, the way we are as humans is that our holding of different views from others very often winds up in us disliking the people holding the opposing view, rather than the view itself.

This is why we have denominationalism. I don't see that as neccesarily a good thing.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Homer
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Homer » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:34 am

The problem with creeds is not so much what they say but how they have been, and continue to be, used. And that is always to divide.

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:05 am

Jesus is the bread of life. He fed 5000 peple at one time with very little 5 laves of bread and two fish. There was nobody else who could feed these people, he is the source of life. The only time this happened was when Jehovah fed the The Israelites bread from heaven. The Jews of Jesus day did accept or believe Jesus equality with God, but many times he points to himself that he is equal with God in power and wisdom and in every way; they rejected that. Providing for these 5000 people states that Jesus is Jehovah equal with God. The father provided the Children of Israel bread from heaven in the days of Jacob and Jesus provided Israel bread in his day, yet he point that the Fathers is God and is greater than all and Jesus even prays to the Father and the Father told Jesus everything to say to the people.

Lastly, Jesus is the bread of heaven that gives life to the world and he is judge, tell a muslim this and they understand.

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steve
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Re: Trinity.

Post by steve » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:30 am

I don't understand the purpose of the above post. It seems to be attempting to prove that Jesus is God. However, that is not what this thread is exploring. The issue raised in the original post (and the only issue I have been addressing) is whether belief in the trinity is necessary for salvation. The fact that Jesus is God is not disputed by me, and does not have any obvious relevance to the question being discussed.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:01 pm

Hi John,

Unfortunately, forums such as this provide little in the way of normal human interaction. All statments are read woodenly, without facial expression, vocal influction and etc. Therefore, it is easy to take someone's words in the wrong spirit. I will try to be clear when I say that my purpose is not to rob you or anyone else of something that they feel is part of the "good news" that they hold dear.

Having said this, I sense that you are becoming frustrated and perhaps a bit defensive on this topic. Your recent reply stated as follows:

Jesus is the bread of life. He fed 5000 peple at one time with very little 5 laves of bread and two fish. There was nobody else who could feed these people, he is the source of life. The only time this happened was when Jehovah fed the The Israelites bread from heaven.


Well, there was the quail in the wilderness as well as the widow that had the miraculous continuance of grain and oil.

Providing for these 5000 people states that Jesus is Jehovah equal with God.


How? Maybe this is true. But how does this prove it? Did it prove that Moses was God when he brought water from the rock? Did it prove Elijah was God when he provided the grain and oil? Also, there are school's of thought that hold that Jehovah is the Proper Name of the Father and that Jesus is the Proper Name of the Son. Just a thought.

The father provided the Children of Israel bread from heaven in the days of Jacob and Jesus provided Israel bread in his day, yet he point that the Fathers is God and is greater than all and Jesus even prays to the Father and the Father told Jesus everything to say to the people.


This one confuses me. "Jesus even prays to the Father and the Father told Jesus everything to say to the people"; You are using this to prove the trinity an essential Christian doctrine? I'm lost.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:16 pm

John316 wrote:however, [JWs] lose sight of Jesus. He is not in the forefront of the picture. Jesus is the Gospel, but in their theology, he is missing. Although they may got some things correct in the Bible and have interpreted them correctly, they are automatically disqualified from being in the Kingdom, the very thing they boast about, because they are misinformed about the identity of Christ. Their inability to understand Jesus identity automatically and completely disqualifies them from eternal life...
(underlining mine)

So would you say that this would be the case with all "who disbelieve the Trinity"? Are they disqualified from eternal life?
And how about those who disbelieve that the only-begotten Son was begotten or generated by God "before all ages" as the early Christians taught? And that's most modern Christians. Even Jesus said, "εξηλθεν εκ του πατρος και εληλυθα εις τον κοσμοσν..." (I emerged out of the Father and have come into the world...)—John 16:28
Paidion

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