Trinity.

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john316yes
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Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:39 pm

Steve why are you going easy on people who promote, teach, and believe in the Oneness Doctrine? This is indeed Liberal, as you have mentioned on your radio program. You say you believe in the Trinity why not fight for it? Instead you're passive. These doctrines fought against false teaching about Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit, but mainly about Jesus. These doctrines are important for a true understanding about God: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. You must defend these doctrines. The Oneness doctrine misrepresents the Lord, its false.

You're giving people a chance to be misled and misinformed by incorrect teachers.

Nicene Creed 325 :"God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father".

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:50 pm

Hi John,

Please tell me how your walk with Christ is enhanced by an apprehension of the trinity doctrine. I ask in sincerity, please, no glib responses.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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steve
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Re: Trinity.

Post by steve » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:35 pm

John,

I state plainly and unapologetically that I believe the trinity doctrine. I mention this whenever the subject comes up. Is this not the same thing as saying I think the Oneness doctrine to be false? How is this being liberal or easy on false doctrine?

On the show today, the question I was asked was whether Oneness believers could be Christians. I spoke as scripturally as I knew how (as usual). To say that a professed follower of Christ is not a true Christian is no light matter. I can only be sure that a professed believer is not a follower of Christ by his/her behavior—since following Christ is a matter revealed in one's "works."

I believe that Christians often have beliefs about God that are not accurate—you, for instance, as I recall, are a Calvinist (correct me if I am remembering incorrectly). In my opinion, the Calvinist's view of God seems more dangerous than the Oneness view, since the former impugns His character, while the latter appears mainly to involve speculation about impractical metaphysics.

Some may think it more important to have the proper metaphysical view of God, but I think God is more concerned that we know His character, as He said in Jeremiah 9:24:

But let him who glories glory in this,
That he understands and knows Me,
That I am the Lord, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth.
For in these I delight,” says the Lord.

No one in Jeremiah's day had ever heard of the trinity (the word may have been coined by Tertullian). This did not seem as important a defect for God to correct as their ignorance of His character—and its implications for their lifestyles.

Jesus never said, "They will know you are my disciples by your exposition of mysterious concepts." He said disciples would be known by their love. The doctrine of the trinity is mysterious, but Paul said, "If I understand all mysteries, but have not love, I am nothing."

I don't know many Oneness people, but the ones I have met do not seem less loving than most trinitarians.

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Candlepower
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Candlepower » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:46 pm

Dear John,
Funny that you talk about how the Trinity is a Biblical doctrine, but then quote the Nicene Creed, which, like the Bible, does not contain the word Trinity.
john316yes wrote:Steve why are you going easy on people who promote, teach, and believe in the Oneness Doctrine?
It's hard to figure how you could listen to Steve and make that statement, John.
john316yes wrote:These doctrines fought against false teaching about Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit, but mainly about Jesus.
This sentence is a non sequitur, John. It does not seem to follow anything that came before it. The only thing that comes close is the reference (in your first sentence) to the Oneness Doctrine. Were you trying to say that it’s the Oneness Doctrine that fought against false teachings about Jesus? That doesn’t seem likely, though, because later on you wrote, “The Oneness doctrine misrepresents the Lord, its (sic) false.” Please tell us what doctrines are fighting what.

Candlepower (A Trinitarian)

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:56 pm

John wrote:Nicene Creed 325 :"God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father".
The Nicene Creed of 325 in its original form also said "begotten before all ages." Do you believe that also? I do. But though the first Trinitarians accepted it, the later Trinitarians recognized the contradiction, and changed the wording to "eternally begotten" (whatever that means).
Paidion

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john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:36 am

TheEditor wrote:Hi John,

Please tell me how your walk with Christ is enhanced by an apprehension of the trinity doctrine. I ask in sincerity, please, no glib responses.

Regards, Brenden.
To the editor, that is a tough question. When I was 21 years old, a student of San Francisco State, I met Jesus; not in person, but in Spirit. I remember when I realized that God may have not loved me as I thought He did; thus, I was on the search for his love. When I picked up the Bible I read verses such as James 4: 4, "Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God," these type of verses caused me to rethink my position with God: my status, my relationship, my goodness, my purity, and made me question whether or not I was really going to heaven when I died, but evermore, it had me doubt that my sins were forgiven. I was I unclean, I was going to hell, who was Jesus? I went to a Pentecostal church my whole life and knew about Jesus crucified and his resurrection, but I didn't know who Jesus was because I didn't read the Bible. It had me wanting Jesus. But who was Jesus?

My biggest question as I sought the Lord was who was Jesus? Was he really God? How can that be? It seems that the Father was God as Jesus said, "My God and your God" or "My Father is greater than all" or "My father gives you the true bread from heaven" or "No one is good but God." Who was he? Who is Jesus? It said that in John, " the Word was God" and that "All things were made through Him." So how is that Jesus,has the same power as the Father, but Jesus calls him greater?

Understanding the Trinity helped me see that God wasn't a contradiction, when I understood this it helped me believe more than I did, it helped me relax. Becoming a Christian wasn't all that ridiculous as most of my professors and fellow students assumed, the Trinity helped make sense of things, but Doctrines like the Oneness Doctrine had me doubt.


I hope that helps.

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darinhouston
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Re: Trinity.

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:34 am

John, do you believe Jesus had the same power as the Father at the time He stated his subordination?


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darinhouston
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Re: Trinity.

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:58 am

I believe error begets error. The trinity was largely a device to confront what was plain error in Arian teachings. Perhaps it was error also (as correctives tend to be). Then comes Oneness to seemingly correct what was perceived as error in the Trinitarian teaching. No surprise that it might go too far in its effort for clarity as well. When so many God fearing people in History have held conflicting and firmly held views which have divided the church, it is a flashing red flag to me that Truth is probably missing in all of them and that is where we should look desperately to cling to mystery.


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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:12 pm

HI John.

Thanks for the heartfelt response. I can appreciate that you found some way of understanding (however possible that may be) God within this doctrine's framework. My position on this for some time now is this; I believe that if one is trying to be a disciple in all sincerity, God is likely going to cut a wide berth. I am sure that the perfect Son of God encountered all manner of error, stupidity and misapprehension, and that even in his disciples. Yet he loved them still.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

john316yes
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Re: Trinity.

Post by john316yes » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:29 am

To the Editor, or Brendon. I agree with you, all that Jesus is really concerned with is our love for him, as he says, "If you love me you will obey my commands" and also that we love one another. But the reality is that people strive their hardest to do these things all the time and are not saved or they have a diluted understanding of God and of Jesus; they are misinformed and lead people astray from God.

Today, I picked a flyer from a bench at a bus stop, you know what flyer it was? The Watch Tower. When I read it, I was shocked that everything that they wrote about was correct; for the most part. They talked about prayer, suicide, God's love, and fighting temptation; they wrote in detail and gave good support scriptural and scientifically; it was good. They sounded like true Israelites, those who fears the Lord; however, they lose sight of Jesus. He is not in the forefront of the picture. Jesus is the Gospel, but in their theology, he is missing. Although they may got some things correct in the Bible and have interpreted them correctly, they are automatically disqualified from being in the Kingdom, the very thing they boast about, because they are misinformed about the identity of Christ. Their inability to understand Jesus identity automatically and completely disqualifies them from eternal life as it says, "the stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone ... Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed." (Acts, Mathew)

So why is the Trinity Doctrine crucial? It is because people can be misled and misinformed about their salvation if the standard of salvation is godly living, theology, evangelism and purity and not a correct understanding of the Triune God. Religious people are moralist; they do lots of godly things things, and still don't know God. For instance, the Mormons are very Zealous about evangelism, making disciples, helping people with income and food, morality, tithing ten percent of their income, and theology (They have a major seminary). Also, Catholics have great speakers who preach from the scriptures with great knowledge, they are very concerned with poor and afflicted, they fight heavily against abortion, and are great defenders of the family, they preach against sin. Lastly, the Muslims are also very zealous to make disciples, evangelize, and are concerned with purity and moral values. For instance, in Saudi Arabia its illegal to drink alcohol and to browse the internet freely from government interference. They don't struggle with internet porn because its blocked by the government. People can have a form godliness and still not know God.

Knowing good doctrine is important, sincerity is good if is established by good doctrine. Don't be misled or misinformed, just because you may be a good person doesn't mean that your saved. You must know the truth.

The Narrow Door

Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’


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