Praying for salvation

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steve
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by steve » Thu May 08, 2014 7:28 am

Here the problem you disagree correct Christian teaching for if I'm not mistaken you said that you disagree with all 5 doctrines from the [Synod] of Dort that were created in 1619 in the Netherlands as a rebuttal to the Remonstrance document by the followers of Jacob Arminius...The problem is: almost every preacher that I here on K-LOVE radio station here in Sacramento and along with many names in Southern California would agree with most of the doctrines. And although even though they may disagree with some there is agreement on most....[You're] in a category that goes against good doctrine.
You suggest that "correct Christian teaching was "created in 1619"? I would have thought correct Christian teaching would have been created much earlier than that. Actually, your doctrines were created much earlier than 1619. They were created around the year AD400 by Augustine. All Christian teachers prior to that would have seen your views as disagreeing with correct Christian teaching.

You appear to think that truth is established by concensus of teachers on the radio. The early Christians didn't have the advantage of radio, so they had to base their teachings on those of Jesus and the apostles. That is what I choose to do as well.

So your question: Are Jesus prayers effective? Do see how dum that sounds?
I never asked that question. You asked it (see above). If it sounds like a dumb question to you, why did you ask it?

john316yes
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by john316yes » Thu May 08, 2014 7:29 pm

Steve, your so caught up on free will that you miss the point of the John 17. Free will is not even written in the Bible. Your belief in free will is why you think that Jesus prayers are weak. Because if Jesus prayers fail one person, than I guess they are weak, thats ridicules. Its says, " nothing is impossible with God" and it says "we can do all things through Christ " So is anything to hard for Jesus? No, nothing is. Free will is not Jesus equal, he has no equal other than the Father and the Holy Spirit.

1.) This is your statement. The intercession of Christ is potent, but does not seem to cancel out man's free will.

2.) Here is the question: if Jesus prays specifically for the people the Father has given Jesus NOT for the world, that they would be One. Are we not One?. He also prayed that Peters faith wouldn't fail him? Did it fail him? So if Jesus prays for you and I daily in intercessory prayer does that fail? No, No, and No !

3.) Im referring to the Acronym T.U.L.I.P. Yes, they were influenced by Augustine as I hear him referenced by both Martin Luther and John Calvin.

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Paidion
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by Paidion » Fri May 09, 2014 12:10 pm

Here is the question: if Jesus prays specifically for the people the Father has given Jesus NOT for the world, that they would be One. Are we not One?
John, do you actually believe that disciples of Christ today are ONE as the Father and the Son are ONE? Rather they are scattered in multitudinous divisions. Sectarianism far surpasses that of the Corinthian church to which the apostle Paul wrote. Paul wrote that the Corinthians were carnal because they favoured Paul or Peter or even Christ in their sectarian spirit. But now they favour Luther or Calvin or the Pope, or one of hundreds of sectarian leaders! One sect battles another.

No, Christ's prayer that his disciples become ONE as He and the Father are ONE, is yet to be fulfilled.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

john316yes
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by john316yes » Fri May 09, 2014 4:23 pm

It seems that the people around here don't think that Jesus is all that great around here. Including Steve. That's sad. :(

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steve
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by steve » Fri May 09, 2014 6:27 pm

That would be a very uncharitable conclusion to draw from the available evidence. A more likely conclusion would be that those who disagree with you think the speculations of Augustine and Calvin were not that great.

john316yes
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by john316yes » Sat May 10, 2014 11:24 am

Sorry if I come on a little harsh. In my mind somethings wrong with your interpretation. I'm also angry that you take the side of free will; the unstoppable force that God can not cross. I'm also sad that you think that Jesus intercessory prayers fail us. I'm also sad that you think Jesus is not a great shepherd. Great shepherds don't lose their sheep. They will fight the wolves, lions, and bears to the death before they let their sheep be eaten. They will also never stop searching for their sheep. Jesus always finds his sheep and picks them up and brings them back to the sheep fold. Also the Lords sheep will never listen to a strangers voice they will run away. They only know the voice of their Master.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by jriccitelli » Sat May 10, 2014 12:17 pm

God can step across freewill, God can do anything, but we are clearly told to make a choice.
Free will is not even written in the Bible (John316 top of page)
"Willingly I will sacrifice to You, I will give thanks to Your name, O LORD, for it is good. For He has delivered me from all trouble" (Psalm 54:6)
"There you shall bring your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the contribution of your hand, your votive offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock' (Deut 12:6)
The freewill offering was just that, unforced motivation is the goal of Gods offer to us. His offering was a freewill offering, and our giving to Him is of our own freewill motivated only by love. The words Choose, decide, believe, faith, etc. all imply a decision of ones own mind. We are in Gods sheep fold by belief and faith, and God keeps us because we continue in Faith.

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Paidion
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by Paidion » Sat May 10, 2014 3:08 pm

For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will...(2Cor 8:3 ESV)
... but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will. (Phm 1:14 ESV)
Not all translations employ the term "free will" in their translations of these verses. However, the words they do use have a similar connotation.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

nancyer

Re: Praying for salvation

Post by nancyer » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:55 pm

I pray daily that God will open my ex-husband's eyes and heart to Him and that He will give me the right words of assurance and encouragement to help bring my ex to Christ. I breaks my heart that he is so very unhappy, angry, skeptical and frustrated and does not see the light that would lead him out of his misery. I belive God can open his eyes and his heart to see there is a truth but that he himself will have to make that final choice to want to know it and to start moving in that direction.

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