Praying for salvation

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john316yes
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Praying for salvation

Post by john316yes » Sun May 04, 2014 12:57 pm

Steve, do you believe in praying for people to be enlightened the true light of God? I mean praying for you unsaved family? I pray fom my unsaved family that he would open the eyes of their heart. Im asking God to change their minds. What about you?

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Another question is when it says that Jesus is interceding for us in Romans 8:34. "Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." and also in John 17:1

"Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. ... For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me,for they are yours."

If Jesus prays for believers and it says we are the Fathers, then does not that mean that we are being protected from evil choices that is to leave the faith? and the devil? And will never lose favor with God?

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steve
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by steve » Sun May 04, 2014 8:54 pm

Steve, do you believe in praying for people to be enlightened the true light of God? I mean praying for you unsaved family? I pray fom my unsaved family that he would open the eyes of their heart. Im asking God to change their minds. What about you?

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
I definitely do pray for unsaved family members. Jesus prayed for those who crucified Him—"He made intercession for the transgressors" (Isa.53:12). He prayed, "Father, forgive them..." (Luke 23:34). Stephen, similarly, prayed for those who murdered him (Acts 7:60). Paul said that prayers and intercessions should be made for "all men" (2 Tim.2:1).
Another question is when it says that Jesus is interceding for us in Romans 8:34. "Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." and also in John 17:1

"Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. ... For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me,for they are yours."

If Jesus prays for believers and it says we are the Fathers, then does not that mean that we are being protected from evil choices that is to leave the faith? and the devil? And will never lose favor with God?
The intercession of Christ is potent, but does not seem to cancel out man's free will. I believe Christ's intercession, in John 17, is for the church corporately, and does not guarantee the salvation of every individual—e.g., those who deliberately rebel against Him. He prayed for those whom the Father had given to Him, but He included Judas in that category (John 17:12). Those that the Father gave to Christ, apparently, still had free will and, like Judas, could rebel and fall away.

john316yes
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by john316yes » Tue May 06, 2014 1:20 am

It says "

1.) Yours they were. (Jesus disciples and us) When? before time began.)

2.) You gave them to me.( They and us were given to Jesus. He drew us to Christ.)

3.) They have kept your word.( They and we have kept his Word. Why? because we were His.)

Lastly Jesus says, "Im not praying for the world but those whom you have given me for they are yours." Jesus prays specifically for the people the Father gave to the Son. So Jesus was not praying for Judas. Judas loved the world. He was part of the world. Anybody who loves this world is an enemy of God. Judas didn't love the Son nor the Father he loved the world. So Jesus prays for us who have believed. We are His. Special and Favored.

So I don't think your right in saying that Jesus prayers are weak!!!

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steve
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by steve » Tue May 06, 2014 8:18 am

It says "

1.) Yours they were. (Jesus disciples and us) When? before time began.)

2.) You gave them to me.( They and us were given to Jesus. He drew us to Christ.)

3.) They have kept your word.( They and we have kept his Word. Why? because we were His.)
A more reasonable understanding would be that the people He is referring to were already God's people before they heard of Christ. They were the faithful remnant of Israel. There was always such a remnant in Israel. Paul said that the Jews of his generation (like himself) who believed in Christ were the "remnant," just as the 7000 who did not bow to Baal were the remnant in Elijah's day (Rom.11:1-5).

Those who came to Christ were those who were the remnant of that generation. Had they lived in Isaiah or Jeremiah's day, they would have heeded those prophets, while the rest of the nation remained apostate. When Jesus came, they "heard" Him because they were already faithful sheep (John 10:26-27). Since they were already followers of God, He directed them to Christ, and thus "gave them" or "handed them over" to Christ. The fact that Jesus says these people had previously "kept [the Father's] word" would seem to confirm that these people had already been the faithful in Israel when Jesus came on the scene. This seems to be the most natural meaning of the verse that is causing you such confusion.

Lastly Jesus says, "Im not praying for the world but those whom you have given me for they are yours." Jesus prays specifically for the people the Father gave to the Son. So Jesus was not praying for Judas. Judas loved the world. He was part of the world. Anybody who loves this world is an enemy of God. Judas didn't love the Son nor the Father he loved the world. So Jesus prays for us who have believed.
Jesus does in fact clarify that this particular prayer (i.e., that the may be "sanctified," that "they may be one" and that they be "kept from the wicked one") is specifically concerning the well-being of His followers. You seem to think He is saying, here, that He never prayed for anyone other than His followers. Why would you assume such a thing?

We know that Jesus interceded for the transgressors who crucified Him (see the citations in my previous post). They were not His followers, and we have no reason to believe they all became His followers at a later date. To extrapolate from His comment about this particular prayer to the assumption that none of Christ's prayers were for "the world" is to make a strangely illogical leap.

You seem to be suggesting that the same God who "so loved the world" (John 3:16) that He sent His Son to be "the Savior of the world" (1 John 4:14) and "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) by giving His flesh "for the life of the world" (John 6:51) would not care enough about that same world to lead Jesus to pray for it?

This is asking a great deal of our credulity.
We are His. Special and Favored.
It always feels good to be specially favored, I'm sure. The question is, "On what basis does God specially favor some and not others?" The Bible is pretty clear on that:

"those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed" (1 Sam.2:30)

“God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble” (James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5)

"through whom also we have access by faith into this grace" (Rom.5:2)

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31)

etc., etc.

These samples represent, probably, less than 1% of the similar statements found throughout scripture. Where are those that speak of "unconditional" favor?
So I don't think your right in saying that Jesus prayers are weak!!!
It's interesting that you would raise such an objection, since I did not say the prayers of Christ are weak. I said just the opposite (see above). The word "potent" means "powerful," not "weak."

john316yes
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by john316yes » Tue May 06, 2014 8:54 pm

1.) "the people He is referring to were already God's people before they heard of Christ"
Here we agree. Paul mention this in Ephesians 1 where he says,"He predestined us ... He chose us in him before ...Having been predestined" How much more textual evidence do you need? Jesus said,"Your they were" and "'You gave them to me" These people were chosen by the Father to be a people for his Son, the Christ, who would redeem them with his blood. They were also Sanctified and made alive by the Holy Spirit. As for the rest of God's human creation they were not Chosen by the Father and not redeemed by the Son nor were they made alive by the Spirit. They are of the World. Judas was of the World. Even John said that he was a thief because he stole from the treasury. James the Apostle said if anyone loves this World he makes himself an enemy of God. Judas was an enemy. Jesus is not weak.

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steve
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by steve » Tue May 06, 2014 11:45 pm

How much more textual evidence do you need?
Need for what? To see things as you do? It's not that I would need more, but I would need texts of a different kind—the kind that say what you are reading into these ones.

john316yes
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by john316yes » Tue May 06, 2014 11:58 pm

Your response was very historical, but what can an average reader get out of John 17? It is love it is God's love for us who believe, not for those who don't believe. We were Gods, and he gave us to Jesus, and we have kept his Word.Jesus said he did not pray for the world but for those the Father gave him, for they were God's

With your interpretation, your historical interpretation, you nullify God's choice and election and undeserved kindness towards sinners.

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steve
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by steve » Wed May 07, 2014 9:05 am

I am not nullifying anything. I am interpreting the passage in its context. You would be in favor of such a proceedure, if it were to yield the results you are seeking. You only object because a correct exegesis eliminates something that you want the passage to teach. My interest, and I hope yours also, is to understand what Jesus meant in His words—not to worry about how such a correct understanding may impact any pet doctrinal preferences.

john316yes
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by john316yes » Wed May 07, 2014 11:24 pm

I am not nullifying anything. I am interpreting the passage in its context. You would be in favor of such a proceedure, if it were to yield the results you are seeking. You only object because a correct exegesis eliminates something that you want the passage to teach. My interest, and I hope yours also, is to understand what Jesus meant in His words—not to worry about how such a correct understanding may impact any pet doctrinal preferences.
Here the problem you disagree correct Christian teaching for if I'm not mistaken you said that you disagree with all 5 doctrines from the Snod of Dort that were created in 1619 in the Netherlands as a rebuttal to the Remonstrance document by the followers of Jacob Arminius.

The problem is: almost every preacher that I here on K-LOVE radio station here in Sacramento and along with many names in Southern California would agree with most of the doctrines. And although even though they may disagree with some there is agreement on most. Even Rick Warren, who I don't necessarily agree with some things agrees with at least 4, and the one he doesn't agree with, he just hasn't made his mind on. John Piper mentored and interviewed him a while ago. Your in a category that goes against good doctrine. You also said some profound things the other day that sounded out of line, which I would like to address another time.


Here are some points that I wrote that supports my opinion and many others support. Jesus prays for the ones (Elect) the Father has given him not for the the ones has not given to Jesus. Jesus prayers are effective 100 percent of the time not 99 percent.

1. World has more than one meaning. (James, 1 John, Ephesians)

2. Jesus prayed for Peter not for Judas.

3. Judas was a thief; he loved the world.

4. Jesus prayed for Peters faith.

5. Jesus prayed for our unity.

6. Jesus prayed for his disciples at hand.

7. Jesus prayed for believers who would believe.

8. Jesus prayed for those were crucifying him and forgive them father for they do know what they are doing. The solider who pierced him said this was truly the Son of God.

9. we don't know who "them " is.

10. Jesus is praying for you and me right now. (Romans)

** So your question: Are Jesus prayers effective? Do see how dum that sounds? Jesus prayers are effective and they never fail. But you seem to think that they do fail; on occasion.

paulespino
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Re: Praying for salvation

Post by paulespino » Wed May 07, 2014 11:55 pm

Luke 23:34 (New King James Version)
34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.

Hi John,

Is your point # 8 a mistype
8. Jesus prayed for those were crucifying him and forgive them father for they do know what they are doing. The solider who pierced him said this was truly the Son of God.
you did not include word "NOT"

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