In the beginning of the letter to the Ephesians, Paul opens up his letter by saying, "Paul, an Apostle of Christ Jesus, by the Will of God." So my opinion is: , if God already had special plans for Paul before he laid the foundations of the earth; that is before time began, then it is a mistake to say that somebody has the power to resist God's will.
Paul says elsewhere, "But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being." This statement again shows somebody willingly choosing to accept God's plans for them; they always will.
But let me make this clear, although God, by his own will and "according to his good pleasure" developed plans for Paul to preach the gospel before time began, I'm not nullifying the fact that Paul chose to accept God's call to be an Apostle. People choose.
The question is did Paul have the option of saying no to the plans God had for him? What is unique about this call by Jesus, when he said, "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do," it appears to be a command and not an invitation, like Jesus said earlier in his ministry, "follow me." The greater question is, if this was all planned out by God; that is, for Paul to be an Apostle, then why did Paul persecute the church, did God plan that also? The bible says, " God works out all things according the council of his own will." I dont know. That verse would seem to say that God has evil and good in his control, somehow. As for the will of man, the will remains in God's hands. Nobody can thwart God's purposes. If God had plans for Paul before the world began, then let it be. I'm a Christian, and if you are a Christian, then by God's grace, and despite our sin, we are as he willed for us to be, Saved. He didn't need our permission to plan this out.
The Will
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john316yes
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The Will
Last edited by john316yes on Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The Will
he question is did Paul have the option of saying no to the plans God had for him? What is unique about this call by Jesus, when he said, "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do," it appears to be a command and not an invitation,
When God purposes to do something , it's done. Paul's whole paradigm changed in under a minute.
When God purposes to do something , it's done. Paul's whole paradigm changed in under a minute.
Re: The Will
What do you mean by this phrase? It seems to be to be inherently contradictory. Let's say time began at time T and event E took place before time began. Then time couldn't have begun at time T. It must have begun some time BEFORE T. For the very word "before" indicates a time before time T.before time began
There simply was no event "before time began", for there was no "before".
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: The Will
Hello John316eyes,
Yes, I think Paul could have said no to God's command as you rightly called it. Paul even says to Agrippa he "was not disobedient to the heavenly vision (acts 26)," if he was not, don't you think it must follow that he could have been disobedient?
By the way I don't think Paul in the least meant to communicate determinism in the opening of Ephesians, nor in Galations 1:16. When he says "by the will of God," I think he means as opposed to his apostleship being ordained by the will of men. And for "being set apart before I was born," Paul simply doesn't say that, but this is how some have translated him here. That may be one reason why the ESV has been called by some "the elect standard version"
I think what he's doing there is making sort of a play on words, and when he says "mother's womb (v. 16)" he means his time in the "Jew's religion (v. 1:15)." He says, "separated me from my mother's womb." Paul was a Pharisee, although there is a bit of debate about the meaning of "pharisee," I think it is generally acknowledged to mean "separated." Of course, it could be argued that he means to communicate two things, but I don't think he does.
Grace and peace to you.
Yes, I think Paul could have said no to God's command as you rightly called it. Paul even says to Agrippa he "was not disobedient to the heavenly vision (acts 26)," if he was not, don't you think it must follow that he could have been disobedient?
By the way I don't think Paul in the least meant to communicate determinism in the opening of Ephesians, nor in Galations 1:16. When he says "by the will of God," I think he means as opposed to his apostleship being ordained by the will of men. And for "being set apart before I was born," Paul simply doesn't say that, but this is how some have translated him here. That may be one reason why the ESV has been called by some "the elect standard version"
I think what he's doing there is making sort of a play on words, and when he says "mother's womb (v. 16)" he means his time in the "Jew's religion (v. 1:15)." He says, "separated me from my mother's womb." Paul was a Pharisee, although there is a bit of debate about the meaning of "pharisee," I think it is generally acknowledged to mean "separated." Of course, it could be argued that he means to communicate two things, but I don't think he does.Grace and peace to you.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.
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john316yes
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Re: The Will
What I mean by before time began is the same thing that Paul says when he states that, " Just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be Holy and blameless in his sight." Before God laid down the foundation of the world; that is, before he created the world, he predetermined the eternal fate of the some of the Ephesian people to be Holy and to be adopted by Jesus Christ, and ultimately be saved from judgment through the Jesus shed blood on the cross.
"he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,"
"he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,"
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john316yes
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- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm
Re: The Will
I said, it is a mistake to say that somebody has the power to resist God's will. Paul couldn't have resisted.
Re: The Will
I said, it is a mistake to say that somebody has the power to resist God's will. Paul couldn't have resisted.
I think there is a distinction between Gods purposes and God's Will. Jesus prayed that God's will be done on earth, which means it is not always done but i believe God's purposes get done anytime God purposes to get it done.
IMO Paul's conversion was when God purposed to send the gospel to the gentiles.
I think there is a distinction between Gods purposes and God's Will. Jesus prayed that God's will be done on earth, which means it is not always done but i believe God's purposes get done anytime God purposes to get it done.
IMO Paul's conversion was when God purposed to send the gospel to the gentiles.