Quilter2 wrote:I am grateful for this discussion and Steve's book because I always found it hard to reconcile the eternal torment position with the verses about proportionate punishment. I have no idea there were other views. As they say, the victor writes the history, so that is probably why we have had one 'officially orthodox' view taught all these years.
Hi Quilter2,
Same here. I think that just as the printing press (~15th century) led to an increase in the availability and knowledge of Scriptures and different interpretations thereof, which helped bring about the Reformation, so also the advent and ubiquity of the internet (~2000?) and all of its essentially free resources (Greek/Hebrew ancient writings, commentaries, etc.) has or will lead to even more reforming of our views.
Quilter2 wrote:If security is conditional, then would it not logically follow that immortality is conditional? I find no mention in the OT of man being immoral. While I grew up in churches that taught 'once saved always saved' I could never get past the warnings in Hebrews and other NT passages which led me to be conditional as to salvation. If God in his providence willed that man should have free will as to whether to accept Christ, would it not follow that He also gave man as a consequence the ability to effectively choose whether he would repent and thus live, or to refuse God and perish (be punished then annihilated)? From skimming over the discussions (I am not on page 15), isn't conditional immortality just the final consequence of man refusing to turn to God?
That we are not in any sense inherently immortal seems more obvious to me (Gen 3:21-22, Rom 2:7, 2 Tim 1:10, 1 Tim 6:16) than which view of hell is most correct.
I would answer your questions in the affirmative (but it largely comes down to semantics). My only quibble is with this that you wrote: "(be punished then annihilated)". The "annihilation" doesn't have to be thought of as something that happens
after the punishment. Rather, the annihiliation/death/destruction can be considered as part of the punishment, i.e., the final condition or result. In other words, annihilation (in whatever way it might occur for different people)
is eternal punishment, regardless of how you define "eternal" (
aionios).