Hell

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Homer
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Re: Hell

Post by Homer » Wed May 21, 2014 10:00 pm

Brenden,

You wrote:
When I left the JW Organization, I had a much more generous view of God's benevolence. But, I still thought to myself when encountering UR proponents, "What point is there in following all the rules if there is another bus coming?" However, after having some interaction with URers, I have found that, for the most part, they seem to be people that are given to godliness, despite the fact that they think, in effect, there's another bus coming.
Interesting regarding "another bus coming". A few years back I was happy to know an elderly gentleman had become a Christian. When telling me about his commitment he commented "I didn't want to miss the bus". Leaves you wondering about his decision had he been informed that there would be an endless opportunity to get on the bus.

It would be interesting to know how many people are universalist when they become Christian as opposed to the number who are believers and evolve into universalists. And also how many evolve further into the "many paths to God" universalism.

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steve
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Re: Hell

Post by steve » Wed May 21, 2014 10:35 pm

Interesting regarding "another bus coming". A few years back I was happy to know an elderly gentleman had become a Christian. When telling me about his commitment he commented "I didn't want to miss the bus". Leaves you wondering about his decision had he been informed that there would be an endless opportunity to get on the bus.
I think it is tragic how many people (even Christians) see Jesus simply as the bus that takes people to heaven. Once the Gospel starts to be preached consistently with the biblical claims of Christ's kingdom and lordship, and people are called to serve God for His own glory, we might begin to see the church producing authentic disciples again. What a revolution that would cause in the Church! The world might even see genuine Christianity, as in the days of the early Church.
It would be interesting to know how many people are universalist when they become Christian as opposed to the number who are believers and evolve into universalists. And also how many evolve further into the "many paths to God" universalism.
I think it differs with different cases.

Our friend mdh, here, was not able to want God or Jesus until he rejected the eternal torment view. He is now an evangelical universalist. I don't know if that is the view he switched to prior to his conversion. I would say that, if every Christian that people met exhibited the Spirit of Christ as much as that brother, the world would have very few grounds for criticizing the church.

Others gravitate toward universal reconciliation as a result of maturing in their knowledge of God and the scriptures (I know that the more I contemplate Jesus and His revelation of the Father, the more I consider universal reconciliation as credible).

So, in some cases, universalism may be what brings a person to Christ initially, and, in other cases, it may result from decades of Christian growth in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Even if universalism proves ultimately to be incorrect, no one need fear that God will be angry at their having given Him the credit for being the very kind of God that Jesus described. I, as a father, would be more grieved if my children underestimated my compassion and goodness than if they overestimated it. I would not be the least surprised if universal reconciliation turns out to be correct, since it is, without question, the view that most glorifies God.

As for progressing to the view that "all roads lead to God," I think this is a concept needing clearer definition. Like the author of "The Shack" I don't think that all roads lead to God, but I believe that God can travel any road to reach the seeker. None can be saved apart from Christ, and there is no religion (including Christian religion) that saves anyone. Christ alone saves, and it seems to me that He can save any seeker He may wish to save, unless His Father is going to deprive Him of some that He died to save.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Hell

Post by jriccitelli » Thu May 22, 2014 11:12 am

What about people believing another Ark will come along to save them?
(Maybe there is an Ark sailing on the Lake of Fire?)

But, I guess there is simply ‘no good reason’ not to believe UR to be true. :)

Or could it be: there is a good reason? :shock:

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Paidion
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Re: Hell

Post by Paidion » Thu May 22, 2014 8:42 pm

My belief throughout my teen years and right until I was 40-45, was eternal torment for the lost. About that time when I was middle-aged, I began to associate with a Christian circle of fellowship whose practice and beliefs were similar to that practised and taught in the book of Acts and in the second century. There was not a one-man ministry, but a body ministry. The communion or eucharist was celebrated every Sunday, using unleavened bread and wine (rather than leavened bread and grape juice). It was regarded as more than a remembrance of what Christ had done for us (though it included that). It was believed that it was a sacrament—a means of grace. I was absolutely thrilled, and could hardly wait to participate in the next meeting.

One day at a summer camp meeting of the group, I overheard one of the leading brethren say, "I never could believe in an eternal hell." I was absolutely shocked. "What have I gotten myself into?" I asked myself. Then I answered my own question: "I have gotten myself into a cult!" I went walking around those camp grounds deeply disturbed. After about an hour of this deep concern and dis-ease, I thought I heard an inner voice say, "Don't worry about this. All will be made clear." Amazingly, as I submitted to that word, I was able to relax and enjoy the rest of the camp.

After I went home, it seemed that no matter where I read in the New Testament, I encountered a teaching about the reconciliation of all people to God. I was astounded! I had never before seen these passages in that way. No man convinced me—but God Himself convinced me. That is the way I came to believe in the reconcilation of all to God!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Homer
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Re: Hell

Post by Homer » Thu May 22, 2014 11:06 pm

Steve,

You wrote:
I think it is tragic how many people (even Christians) see Jesus simply as the bus that takes people to heaven.
If that is the extent of the message preached, it is indeed tragic. Jesus is Lord as well as savior.
Once the Gospel starts to be preached consistently with the biblical claims of Christ's kingdom and lordship, and people are called to serve God for His own glory, we might begin to see the church producing authentic disciples again.


I hope you are engaging in hyperbole here. Are you saying the church is not producing authentic disciples? I know quite a few of them. How do you determine who is or is not an authentic Christian?
Even if universalism proves ultimately to be incorrect, no one need fear that God will be angry at their having given Him the credit for being the very kind of God that Jesus described.


Sounds as though you believe Jesus described a God who is "better" than the God of either the traditional or annihilationist views. Then if universalism is ultimately false, wouldn't that make Jesus a false teacher? If universalism is true, He appears to have made many misleading statements.
I, as a father, would be more grieved if my children underestimated my compassion and goodness than if they overestimated it. I would not be the least surprised if universal reconciliation turns out to be correct, since it is, without question, the view that most glorifies God.
There is a bit of the humanistic in this view of how God is most glorified. Why stop with universalism? Many would say God would be even more glorified if the Church would lighten up on the gays and lesbians. Wouldn't a good and loving human father want his children to be happy in their relationships?

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steve
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Re: Hell

Post by steve » Fri May 23, 2014 12:09 pm

I'll let you guess at my answers to your questions, based upon the thorough acquaintance with my views that you should have by this time.

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Quilter2
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Re: Hell

Post by Quilter2 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:15 pm

Hi Steve,

I so appreciate your radio program and your commitment to go where the Lord would take us even if it ruffles some feathers in established ideas.

Having finally moved, I have taken time to start reading your book on Hell. I rarely get to hear the radio program live because of the time zone difference (we are CST), but I remember you mentioning there were three schools of thought in the ancient church. I look forward to getting to that part if you discuss it in the book. It has occurred to me that there are a number of things which I view differently now that I have known the Lord and the Scriptures longer. There are a number of doctrines that started Biblical but have become distorted over time, some through Catholic error, some through Protestant error, some through popular misunderstanding because of relative Biblical illiteracy.

As you know, we are primarily Anabaptist in conviction. Learning to look at things through their "lenses" was one of my first lessons in "thinking outside the box." We came to the view that the Bible is not flat as they say, that the New Testament supercedes the Old. Christ said "it was said...but I say to you....." on a number of topics. Then we came to the view that Christ was tempted, that He could have sinned or it was not a real temptation. Also that Adam created perfect had choice, so if Christ stood as the second Adam, He would seem to have to have choice also or He could not choose the right way. This greatly increased our appreciation for His suffering, and the price He paid for our redemption, and greater glory to Him.

I read a booklet about Christ's peaceable kingdom written by Merle Ruth, a very conservative Mennonite which did not use the term but apparently described the amillenial position. I did not at that time know the names for the various systems of teaching. It brought back so much I had been taught in a Bible church growing up before the "RB Theime" teaching as they called it, came in (dispensationalism). Shortly after that I heard your radio program for the first time and you gave a name to things I had always wondered about. I never embraced Calvinist despite the literature given my by a godly Calvinist boss, because I could not square it with all the warnings especially in the book of Hebrew. And so over time a number of our 'traditional' teachings have given way to what we feel is a more Biblical position.

The Catholic church teaches purgatory. I have wondered if purgatory was not a distortion of the idea of punishment after physical death in order to bring someone to repentance, sort of a twist on the universal reconciliation position.

What think ye of this possibility?

Blessings to you and your lovely wife,
Paula

dizerner

Re: Hell

Post by dizerner » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:16 am

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jeremiah
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Re: Hell

Post by jeremiah » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:04 pm

Universalism makes the Biblical warnings as empty of real meaning as Calvinism does.
Not so my brother, unless you are assuming a "universalism" that disregards hell altogether. If God's intention for humanity is restoration to himself by Jesus Christ, then Jesus' warning still stands *with(edit) all its force. It is indeed still better to enter into life maimed then to be cast in the fire that is not quenched and where the worm dieth not. The question is of God's intention with hell, at least to my mind this is where it should begin.

grace and peace to you.
Last edited by jeremiah on Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

dizerner

Re: Hell

Post by dizerner » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:15 pm

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