Hell

[jriccitelli]

When you are done with this UR discussion (will it ever be done??)

Well if you believe Conditional immortality, it will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Yet UR believes it will never be over. So yes according to Gods book, I believe it will eventually be over. Unless God comes out with a new book, maybe someone could write it for Him, and call it ‘Additions to Revelation’.

[Michelle]

When you are done with this UR discussion (will it ever be done??)

Well if you believe Conditional immortality, it will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Yet UR believes it will never be over. So yes according to Gods book, I believe it will eventually be over. Unless God comes out with a new book, maybe someone could write it for Him, and call it ‘Additions to Revelation’.

okay then...

[steve]

JR,

Just out of curiosity...have you read my book?

[Candlepower]

I was raised on Eternal Torment, the Traditional view of hell. For many years, I knew of no other option about the destiny of the lost. ET, like the Resurrection, was fundamental. Eventually, I did hear of other views. My knee-jerk reaction was blindly to dismiss them as liberal, cultish, or heretical. But in the last few years, I have learned that my ET position (fairly examined) actually had little if any Scriptural support.

It is clear to me now that the primary support that ET’s defenders rely upon is that ET is “The Tradition.” Their presupposition of “tradition” governs their interpretations and underpins their arguments. Basically their defense is, “ET is right because ET is right. Hence, Scripture proves it.” It is sad that tradition can exert such a powerful hold on people’s minds. I have a goal to be free, eventually, from all of it, and to know the truth.

My tent is currently pitched just inside the CI campground, on the edge farthest from ET and closest to UR. I say “tent” because I am ready and willing to pull up stakes and move my tent into the UR camp if I become convinced its grounds are better. I am studying. I am not going to build a mausoleum on uncertain ground and defiantly live there with my eyes closed and my fingers jammed into my ears.

The fact that there are excellent Christians in all three camps (even ET) proves to me that “Hell” is a shadowy subject. All three views of the final outcome of the lost have some Scriptural support. While ET has scant support, I believe CI and UR both have substantial support. CI’s who say that UR lacks Scriptural support simply don’t know what they are talking about. In other words, they are ignorant, which means that they lack information. I wonder if they have read anything about UR by an advocate of UR. Like me in former days, perhaps they are parroting UR critics rather than carefully examining UR advocates. If they were to carefully and fairly examine UR, they would then be qualified to make reasonable criticisms of it. Until then, their comments are just so much discordant clanging.

I no longer believe that the Doctrine of Hell is one of the fundamentals of the Christian faith. It is important, but it is peripheral. I am happy to be out of the hellacious ET camp. I am much happier in the CI camp. But if UR turns out to be true, it would make me, as Phil Robertson says, “Happy, Happy, Happy, Happy!”

Speaking of happy, Happy New Year to all of you!

[steve7150]

My tent is currently pitched just inside the CI campground, on the edge farthest from ET and closest to UR. I say “tent” because I am ready and willing to pull up stakes and move my tent into the UR camp if I become convinced its grounds are better. I am studying. I am not going to build a mausoleum on uncertain ground and defiantly live there with my eyes closed and my fingers jammed into my ears.









Very well said Candlepower! Although i may come across as a UR guy i'm actually also about on that borderline between CI & UR. What i am convinced about is postmortem repentance and it may or may not lead to UR. There are some verses against UR like "the unforgivable sin" that i do not have a satisfactory answer to and if a single person is excluded from heaven then many may be excluded. I just don't know and probably won't on this side. The strongest argument for UR IMHO is "God's Will" but i don't know if His purposes in this matter necessarily match his will.

[Michelle]

Since I'm here, I'll join you two with my tent on the border. I can't get past passages like John 3:16 that mention perishing in contrast to eternal life. I THINK it might be possible that eventually everyone will believe, but I'm not positively convinced of it.

[Homer]

Candlepower,

You wrote:

I wonder if they have read anything about UR by an advocate of UR. Like me in former days, perhaps they are parroting UR critics rather than carefully examining UR advocates. If they were to carefully and fairly examine UR, they would then be qualified to make reasonable criticisms of it. Until then, their comments are just so much discordant clanging.

Seems to me you are attributing your own experience of ignorance to others, while being ignorant yourself as to the knowledge of those you criticize. As for myself, I have read enough of the UR stuff to know there is nothing new in their arguments (other than more speculations and philosophical arguments). I have a book that is an epistolary debate about UR from back in the 19th century, and when this interminable discussion began I noticed that the arguments are pretty much the same as they were then.

We are charged with ignorance as to what they believe. Its like trying to nail Jello to the wall when you have everything from the no-hellers to the Unitarians to contend with. One says people will roast in hell for ages before repenting of his own free-will and now we hear they may repent on judgment day and escape hell entirely.

[steve]

One says people will roast in hell for ages before repenting of his own free-will and now we hear they may repent on judgment day and escape hell entirely.

Why would these ideas be seen as contradictory? Don't we see the same differences in disposition in this life? Some surrender to Christ in childhood, or as soon as they hear the gospel. Others resist until their deathbed, and then repent. Why would it seem strange to find the same differences on the other side?

[Roberto]

A brief diversion for anyone to answer that knows: what does the universalist think that the expression "second death"

means?

[steve7150]

A brief diversion for anyone to answer that knows: what does the universalist think that the expression "second death"

means?








It means the lake of fire. The question is whether the lake of fire means "eternal torment" or "destruction" or "temporal punishment/purification"

It's possible the LOF is not a place but God himself.