Justification

[john316yes]

Steve, do you believe in conditional Justification even after the new birth, "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit"? When God gives a person the righteousness of Christ, that is, the state in which the" the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us" through Christs atonement, can a Christian be unborn again, and have his or her righteousness stripped from them? .

[dwilkins]

I think it would help you if you simply kept dikaiosune as justification instead of mixing in righteousness randomly. Justification is an acquittal by God the judge. He is applying his judicial function. He is not somehow transmitting his personal moral perfection. It is more reasonable to see the acquittal voided by the terms written by God (failure to continue faith/faithfulness) than to say that his personal moral righteousness was sucked back out of someone.

Doug

[john316yes]

I think it would help you if you simply kept dikaiosune as justification instead of mixing in righteousness randomly. Justification is an acquittal by God the judge. He is applying his judicial function. He is not somehow transmitting his personal moral perfection. It is more reasonable to see the acquittal voided by the terms written by God (failure to continue faith/faithfulness) than to say that his personal moral righteousness was sucked back out of someone.

Doug

When a person is Justified they are not simply acquitted, that is to say; acquittal is a function by which a judge or a jury freely discharges someone from an obligation. However, this doesn't work for someone who is looking to be Justified before our God, because what a simple acquittal is missing, is a Redemption, and Righteousness or moral perfection as you say, even better, sinless perfection. All this is credited to our account, as it is written in the book of Romans,"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." We don't have any righteousness of our own. That's why Justification cant be conditional. It doesn't depend on us, but on God's grace. Also, all this is done by the Holy Spirit who seals this righteousness and applies the merits of Christ by the believer. We continue in the faith because of the Holy Spirit and God's grace not by our effort.

"For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Romans 8

[dwilkins]

In both Hebrew and Greek the base word for justification and righteousness is the same. In other words, either word can be translated from the Hebrew or Greek word. The translators had to make an educated guess in each case about which one was appropriate. I propose that most of the time the word justify/justification should be used. I understand that your theology is based on the assumption that righteousness should be used most of the time. I think this is a mistake.

Doug

[john316yes]

In both Hebrew and Greek the base word for justification and righteousness is the same. In other words, either word can be translated from the Hebrew or Greek word. The translators had to make an educated guess in each case about which one was appropriate. I propose that most of the time the word justify/justification should be used. I understand that your theology is based on the assumption that righteousness should be used most of the time. I think this is a mistake.

Doug

Remember it is God who Justifies and who is the Justifier. We are the recipients of Justification. It is the process in which God does something to the person to make him Holy, acceptable to God, through their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross and his resurrection. We are made Just and receive righteousness as a gift. But the problem with Conditional Security and Justification is that it becomes a works based religion.

[dwilkins]

I don't think you are engaging my argument. You transitioned directly to an assertion about the mechanics of justification, in my opinion, because you have no way to digest what I said. In addition, you simply asserted that what I'm proposing is a works based religion. I'm pretty sure I know what you mean by that but, once again, I are don't think you are using the idea of works in the way that scripture does.

In Galatians, Paul is trying to reach his converts who've been seduced by Judaizers (they fell from Grace after being converted). He is trying to tell them that they don't have to follow the message of the Judaizers to join the Mosaic religion in order to have access to Christ. Circumcision and feast observance were non-moral works done to indicate membership in the Mosaic religion. Paul is telling his readers that they can access God directly by faith just like Abraham had, before the Mosaic religion ever came about. He is telling them that if they join the Mosaic religion to have access to God, because from the point of view of the Judaizers mere membership in that religion was enough to be justified, they will have fallen away from Christ because he can only be accessed by direct faith. The crisis is accessing God through works of the Law of Moses demonstrating membership in the Mosaic religion vs. faith like Abraham had, not good works vs. faith. The Reformed paradigm you are following doesn't follow the logic of the text and loses the ability to even see the crisis that Paul is facing throughout the New Testament.

Doug

[steve]

Conditional Security and Justification is that it becomes a works based religion.

I often hear this said, by people of the Reformed tradition. However, I have never seen this in any way demonstrated. If the condition for security is faith (not works), then how can this be equated with a "works based" system?

All true Christians recognize the necessity of good works (e.g., Matt.5:16; Gal.5:6; Eph.2:10; Tit.1:16; 2:14; 3:3:1, 14). A works-free religion is a dead religion (James 2:14ff).

I believe that we are saved (including justification) by grace. However, this grace is "through faith" (Eph.2:8; Rom.5:2). Grace is received, or accessed, by faith. Where there is no faith, there is no access to grace. It's pretty simple, really.

[jaydam]

can a Christian be unborn again, and have his or her righteousness stripped from them? .

Having left my childhood faith as I became a young adult, only to return over a decade later, I lived your question.

I believe I was saved, and I believe I lost my salvation.

It was not that I became unborn, but I gave up my birthright from being born again, and it did me as much good as if I'd never been born again. I sold the born-again birthright for what I saw as a better life.

I was not stripped of my righteousness, but I chose to reject the righteousness Christ had given me. I returned the gift, it wasn't stripped from me.

Only by the grace of God and a miraculous story did I come back to find my Heavenly Father waiting to welcome me back, bringing me back into the family and covering me under Christ's purchased righteousness again.

[paulespino]

Jaydam wrote:

Having left my childhood faith as I became a young adult, only to return over a decade later, I lived your question.

I believe I was saved, and I believe I lost my salvation.

It was not that I became unborn, but I gave up my birthright from being born again, and it did me as much good as if I'd never been born again. I sold the born-again birthright for what I saw as a better life.

I was not stripped of my righteousness, but I chose to reject the righteousness Christ had given me. I returned the gift, it wasn't stripped from me.

Only by the grace of God and a miraculous story did I come back to find my Heavenly Father waiting to welcome me back, bringing me back into the family and covering me under Christ's purchased righteousness again.

I agree with you. It is us who rejected the Grace of God, it us who walked away from his Grace, it is us who left and forsook him.

Hebrews 13:5
New International Version (NIV)
5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
“Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”